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 C02?

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ScoobyBlack
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PostSubject: C02?   October 14th 2009, 12:59 pm

I did a bit of research back in the day regarding spraying C02 through the intercooler to cool the charge air down. While most sites clean horsepower increases using this method, I'm pretty skeptical of that. I'm actually interested in installing a setup like this that I can use at the track to help with consistency (though I'll admit, on a 100 degree day, cooling things down would be nice). Anyone have any thoughts about using C02 sprayers like this?



Post note... that's funny, the above WRX looks almost EXACTLY like mine; side markers and grill. Damn clones Wink
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 14th 2009, 2:36 pm

I looked into these a lot 5-6 years ago. They do make power on the dyno because they keep the intercooler from heat soaking. But when your moving really there should be enough airflow to cool it down. Obviously colder air is better but at speeds of 35+ mph you have enough air with a proper intercooler setup I don't see the need for one.

The one place I do think they could be helpful is staging or waiting for your next run as you can spray it without getting out of your car to cool it down. But If it was me I would run a 25-35 shot of nitrous, this would help more with cooling and you get the added power of the nitrous. Typically doing a 35 shot on a turbo setup yields 40-50hp gains from the added cooling/nitrous. I personally won't run either as its just another system to go wrong or to refill. But if you need extra cooling I feel that is the better choice. Plus there are other ways much simpler to cool intercoolers before a run ie. Dry ice, Ice, water, compressed air, ETC.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 14th 2009, 4:48 pm

I have looked into this many times. The setup with the intercooler addon is about $400. I decided against it as my car on runs about 20c at the max and I did not want to convert my front bumper again. Also, Co2 is also pretty expensive in my book. If you are looking to keep your temps down in the summertime you should just go with a FMIC. Air directly hitting the intercooler will do more than anything.

Do you have an air splitter on yours? I know they make them and I guess temps drop a few degrees. That is about the only thing I can think of that would cool the intake charge down for daily driving. Nitrous and Co2 are too expensive for a DD, but a drag car, they would work great.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 14th 2009, 5:38 pm

Oh I'll be getting a FMIC, no question about that. However, I'd use this like you'd use dry ice at the track in order to cool the intercooler down in order to keep consistent. I know that it's not the most cost effect way of doing it, but I'd like something hardwired in. I don't think that filling the C02 would be too expensive; you can just bring the canister wherever they refill paintball c02 cartridges. It'd be sort of in lieu of the STi water sprayer. More compact and cooler looking. Rolling Eyes

Nope, I don't have a splitter on mine since I have the JDM STi hood scoop. When I end up getting rid of it for an FMIC, an oil cooler or custom intake will go there.
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 15th 2009, 10:15 am

Like mentioned they have some advantages, but also plenty of cons. One indicator of how well they really function is they where super popular when they first came out, oh 5-6 years ago. Now you rarely see them. I would imagine that is becasue most people lost interest in them for one reason or another.


If you want consistant temps at the track run a liquid to air intercooler with a dry ice box.

There is a guy that SCCA's in a jetta that has an intercooler sprayer, he seemed rather stoked on it since he would use it non stop while waiting to stage (it's super loud, and hence why we all noticed it so much). Not sure how he felt about it but maybe someone on here knows him and could get some info.
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 15th 2009, 12:01 pm

b1r - TS wrote:

If you want consistant temps at the track run a liquid to air intercooler with a dry ice box.

Cool deal. Yeah, I have a friend with a WRX who has used a liquid/air intercooler very successfully. That's another option I'm exploring, but its nice to get opinions on what all is out there.
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 15th 2009, 5:52 pm

Did not think about an Icebox setup. That would work great, and ice is very cheap. I like the idea.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 16th 2009, 10:24 am

Several of the National SCCA dudes run setups like this. For short runs it is a perfect system. It's short fall obviously comes if you want to take your car for a few hour drive.... you are going to end up with a puddle of water.

Probably the best all around system is running a liquid to air intercooler with an additional radiator to cool your water/coolant supply, then branch off from that system into a dry ice box. So when needed you can run the water/coolant through the dry ice box and have the added cooling.


I should probably just build one and test it out... I have always been a fan of creative intercooler setups.
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 17th 2009, 8:00 am

I want to be a part of this build Jake. It would be cool to get my temps down to the TEENS while driving. Get a hold of me.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 17th 2009, 11:37 am

here ya go, here is a turn key system. I have used their couplers but that is it, so I can't comment on the quality of their other products... they are cheaper than most so I would imagine that is some indicator it isn't top notch


http://www.siliconeintakes.com/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=17bb951c8900e1f73bc99b21ee08e67c
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 17th 2009, 12:20 pm

Sweet stuff Jake. I will have to investigate this further.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 17th 2009, 1:10 pm

Great info Jake!!! Thanks!!
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 18th 2009, 1:19 am

The idea is sweet Bone for your car maybe, but these setups really only work well for SCCA cars as the ice used to cool the water melts too fast. Jason Rhodes better know as J-Rho had a custom setup with a cooler inside he would fill full of ice and water and then had a pump that pumped the water to the intercooler to keep it cool. He said after a short lap he had to replace the water/ice. I think a good FMIC with the right size and good core is more than enough. And you can always cool it if its hot from sitting. No way the liquid intercoolers are really going to beat a FMIC for DD.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 18th 2009, 7:40 am

I agree. FMIC is about as good as you get.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 18th 2009, 2:39 pm

I was having a lot of heak soak issues when I retuned my car while running a TMIC. I had also installed a new exhaust with a divorced downpipe which I thinks gets a little hotter then my previous exhaust. I need a EGT to know for sure. Now that I am running a FMIC my car runs a lot smoother and cooler. I had to retune a little more for the FMIC but I love it. It has some low end lag but pulls pretty hard from about 3800rpm to redine. 19psi FTW!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 19th 2009, 8:32 am

Mouth, you are silly.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 12:20 am

Brandon what are you changing your a/f ratio's or your timing? You shouldn't need to change anything with new exhaust parts or a FMIC. Until you do something to change the VE of the engine which I guess you could argue the exhaust may have done but not enough to matter you really are better off in my opinion with the stock tune. You have to consider the amount of time the Subaru engineers put into that tune. I'd be willing to bet that without a dyno that most of the tuning or difference you feel with the new tune is not changing the power more than 1-3hp and may even be hurting power or changing your curve to make it feel faster. I've seen a lot of different Subaru stage 1 tunes make the same or less power with less safety margain. I don't see why so many subaru guys are always trying to "tune" nearly stock cars. Now if you change cams, do head work, compression, intake mani, or something like that I think it would be worth it. If you are getting a hotter engine after "tuning" a car then my bet is you have less power. Heat is bad, more heat means less power unless you can harness that energy to make more power. Subies are not as detuned as Evo's so I think unless you are changing a lot of parts you should be happy with what you have, and if you want more do it the right way and add the parts to reach your goals. Not picking on anyone just trying to be helpful and save some of you from rebuilding an engine.

With proper tuning I had 400+ hp for over 4 years with no problems on mostly stock internals and we only tore it apart out of boredom and it still looked like new. The real key if you want to tune closer to stock setups is use a dyno so you can squeeze power out where there is room for improvement.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 1:59 pm

Subarus are really bad about running extremely rich out of the shoot and the timing table are very crappy. The newer model '08+ have a huge hole in the 2000-2800RPM range that is absolutely terrible!! I have a tune on my '08 which I made from scratch and it is 100% better than the stock one. I have pics that I will post.

It is really crazy how much power you can pull out of a tune on a Subaru. I think they do a horrible job at trying to keep the cars running for too long they forget about the performance side of it by putting too much fuel to the car.

I have to agree with Brandon (kind of) about this one. Tuning is a must.

[Top version is mine and bottom version is Subaru]

Notice how sporatic and uneven the Subaru tune is. This is what is killing the HP and smoothness of the car. My car is now smooth as butter.


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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 2:12 pm

My biggest complaint is that most, not all but most tuned subies don't end up lasting long. Even with minimal gains, not saying that you can't get more power out of them but at what risk? I haven't seen many that run for multiple years without need some engine work done. I do think that you can always tweak the factory settings for more power/change the curve. But I think you should be very experienced not just tinkering around with it. I just notice that many on here talk about driving around and making changes, and I don't see that as a right way to tune or even learn to tune. When you have experience and know what those changes are doing that is different, but not everyone with a stock car should get something to tune their car and start changing things. The difference you can usually get from changing the OEM tune is not typically enough that you can feel a difference even though most think they feel a difference. I can change my settings and make 20-30 hp difference and not really notice the difference. It would be very tough to feel the difference from making small safe changes. Unless there is an issue and you end up masking the real problem.

Mike your situation is different as you have had lots of time tuning and as I'm sure you would agree you still learn something almost every time you tune. But for people with a new $25,000 car do you really want to try and learn as you go? I don't think most people truely understand what the changes are doing and how they effect everything. If you car begins to heat soak after a tune you either have too little or too much timing. I really don't think other than smoothing out any low spots that the timing could be too far off, especially in the upper rpm's. Especially with many of today's engines that are not knock limited. MBT will fall off whay before you hit the knock threshold.

Mike your timing does look better, and I think with knowledge you certainly can smooth out the curve. But I don't think most people should be doing this on their own. The reason Subaru and most manufacturers timing looks like that is because most of those sites you will never see so they error on caution. This is why a dyno that you can tune under load is such a great tool. I would have done very similar changes but I think most people on here are asking for more problems by making changes, esspecially if they don't understand what the changes are going to do. Also some of the spots that timing drops back look like they may be where you land when you shift and reducing the timing will help with transient response of the turbo.

Also can you change the scale on those? Its kind of hard to compare since the scale is different.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 2:39 pm

Just look at the corresponding sites. I had to change the load sites since I was running more boost. Stock only went to about 16psi. So if you look 2.45 on mine and 2.40 on the stock tune are pretty close to the same.

This is a pretty mild tune and I actually gained about 3MPG off of it. Subarus run about 10:1 around 14psi, so I tuned it down to 11:1 or so. Also, I changed the idle/low load sites from 14.7:1 to 13.8:1 and that really helped with the get up and go. Car does not stumble at all.

You would be very suprised to see how these things are when they come from the factory, but I am in 100% agreement with you about people tuning their own car. I am no stud, but tuning I can do (aside from Franks car, it was weird). All of my problems have been mechanical, not tuning based. Subarus are very bad about bearings in general.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 4:24 pm

Yeah I wasn't saying anything about the mechanical problems with your car Mike. I have seen a lot of Subaru's after only a year or two with big problems if they change the tune. Seems crazy the stock maps are that far off. I've never seen a stock car run that rich. Guess my lack of Subaru knowledge is bigger than I thought. But that seems crazy that you can add 10 degrees in some cells. Usually 2-3 degrees is a good bump on a stock car. I'd really love to see what the changes do on the dyno. I think its time for a road trip to SLC!

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 5:02 pm

Yeah, Subaru is pretty retarded. I would not like to know about them if I wasnt so in love with them. HA HA HA.

Have fun in Denver.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 5:09 pm

Its getting cold here but there is lots to do. The indoor skydive place is across the street so if they're open after my dinner meeting I know what i'm doing.

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 20th 2009, 5:11 pm

I've always wanted to do that!!!!!!! bounce



EDIT: <<<< Post 200 for me, WOOT!

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   October 21st 2009, 5:49 pm

Alright, back on topic then. Co2, intercooler, or an ice box? Maybe all three! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: C02?   February 10th 2010, 2:14 am

how about a water to air intercooler?
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