| turbo or supercharger for my big block | |
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+12Cyfun bender460 Dr.Auto 68 motion shawnss tgierke Jfive quadracer nate jackson ghost Novaflash2002 WarWagon 16 posters |
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WarWagon [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 35 Join date : 2010-02-08 Posts : 261 Location : Billings,MT
| Subject: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 8th 2010, 9:21 am | |
| Which would be better a top mounted supercharger on my big block or a giant turbo....I kinda wanna make It some what like josh had it | |
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Novaflash2002 [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 37 Join date : 2009-09-26 Posts : 823 Location : Great Falls, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 8th 2010, 6:19 pm | |
| Turbo. Way more efficiant and cooler aspect. | |
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ghost [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 44 Join date : 2010-02-04 Posts : 922 Location : billings
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 9th 2010, 12:11 am | |
| and as josh proved . almost impossible to tune . he never quit , alwasy had to work on it , only way id do a turbo is injected, carbed turbo applications are a tuning nightmare , u ought to know matt u were over plenty of times when he was havin issues how much u want to work on the car ? top mounts are a lil easier , either way u will be tuning on them alot ,
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WarWagon [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 35 Join date : 2010-02-08 Posts : 261 Location : Billings,MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 9th 2010, 10:56 am | |
| Ya sam i remember all that tuning time haha...now I have a question wat is differance between and 871 and 671
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nate jackson [WEEKEND WARRIOR]
Join date : 2010-04-13 Posts : 548 Location : BMT
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ghost [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 44 Join date : 2010-02-04 Posts : 922 Location : billings
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 9th 2010, 12:12 pm | |
| basically the 871 move more air per revolution at the same psi , hence more power .. cant remeber the cubic inch diff between the two , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superchargergo here it explains it better than me llol | |
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Novaflash2002 [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 37 Join date : 2009-09-26 Posts : 823 Location : Great Falls, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 9th 2010, 12:45 pm | |
| thats a spendy turbo nate. a borge warner s91 would be ample. | |
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nate jackson [WEEKEND WARRIOR]
Join date : 2010-04-13 Posts : 548 Location : BMT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 10th 2010, 5:24 pm | |
| - Novaflash2002 wrote:
- thats a spendy turbo nate. a borge warner s91 would be ample.
borge warner s91 would be sweet i like the sound of that | |
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quadracer [TRAINEE]
Age : 31 Join date : 2010-09-16 Posts : 80 Location : Billings
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 10th 2010, 10:44 pm | |
| supercharger. way easier to tune, in my perspective, because if you think about it, supercharger=always boosting which makes easier tuning, turbos are not boosting and unless your putting it in a load its hard to spool, every turbo car i have driven at least, cause doesnt it need to be under a load?? | |
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WarWagon [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 35 Join date : 2010-02-08 Posts : 261 Location : Billings,MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 11th 2010, 7:43 pm | |
| Cool thanks for helping me decide | |
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nate jackson [WEEKEND WARRIOR]
Join date : 2010-04-13 Posts : 548 Location : BMT
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Novaflash2002 [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 37 Join date : 2009-09-26 Posts : 823 Location : Great Falls, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 11th 2010, 9:48 pm | |
| - quadracer wrote:
- supercharger. way easier to tune, in my perspective, because if you think about it, supercharger=always boosting which makes easier tuning, turbos are not boosting and unless your putting it in a load its hard to spool, every turbo car i have driven at least, cause doesnt it need to be under a load??
your though is noble but not quite correct. Any engine with the proper sized turbo or super charger will need some what of a load to build boost. If u hooked an engine up to a dyno with no drag it would not make much power what so ever. | |
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ghost [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 44 Join date : 2010-02-04 Posts : 922 Location : billings
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block October 12th 2010, 8:50 am | |
| - quadracer wrote:
- supercharger. way easier to tune, in my perspective, because if you think about it, supercharger=always boosting which makes easier tuning, turbos are not boosting and unless your putting it in a load its hard to spool, every turbo car i have driven at least, cause doesnt it need to be under a load??
do u know anything about forced induction im no tryn to be an ass, but u need to learn what your limitations are . what u said makes no sense | |
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Jfive [TRAINEE]
Age : 41 Join date : 2011-01-19 Posts : 85 Location : Columbia Falls
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block February 18th 2011, 6:53 pm | |
| Some good advice, and bad advice. I vote turbo. Two years ago, I would have said supercharger though. Now a draw thru turbo is just about as easy to tune as a draw thru supercharger, but a blow thru blower, is just about as hard to tune as a blow thru turbo setup. There are so many things out there for blow thru carbs, that tunning can be made plenty easy. You just need a wideband and jets, and a good blow thru carb. I would look at CSU. Good advice of the borg warner turbos, as they are definately priced alot better than a garrett. I also like precision, and used big rig turbos. A holset HX60 could be perfect and cost about 400.00 bucks. I would do a blow thru setup, either way so you could use a intercooler and allow your self to run more timing, boost, on pump gas. Also aluminum heads are your friend. You making any head way on this. | |
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tgierke [TRAINEE]
Age : 32 Join date : 2011-04-11 Posts : 51 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 11th 2011, 9:20 pm | |
| Hey im doing twins on a chevy 350 wat do u think max compression ratio is i should run. It will be a completely built engine and turbos will suppourt up 1000 horse easily and 30psi | |
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Jfive [TRAINEE]
Age : 41 Join date : 2011-01-19 Posts : 85 Location : Columbia Falls
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 11th 2011, 10:36 pm | |
| I'd go 8 to 1 depending on what elevation your at, and what elevation the area you plan on running it at. A 350 is good for about 700 to 800 hp in turbo form. I would go for about 15 to 20 psi. Get some RHS aluminum heads, best bang for the buck, get a turbo cam from cammotion, or someone thats great, Have forged pistons, Forged H beams, and a forged steel crank. Don't have to have the best, but a scat or eagle setup would do. Whats it gonna go in. Also TH400 and 3.27 gears. What year motor you building. I got a really good thread for you to read if you have about 5 to 8 hrs to read it. | |
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shawnss [MASTER TECH]
Age : 39 Join date : 2009-09-23 Posts : 1571 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 11th 2011, 11:29 pm | |
| - Jfive wrote:
- I'd go 8 to 1 depending on what elevation your at, and what elevation the area you plan on running it at. A 350 is good for about 700 to 800 hp in turbo form. I would go for about 15 to 20 psi. Get some RHS aluminum heads, best bang for the buck, get a turbo cam from cammotion, or someone thats great, Have forged pistons, Forged H beams, and a forged steel crank. Don't have to have the best, but a scat or eagle setup would do. Whats it gonna go in. Also TH400 and 3.27 gears. What year motor you building. I got a really good thread for you to read if you have about 5 to 8 hrs to read it.
wow thats some pretty low comp. the motor im putting together now will bee 9.4.1 and it should handle 25lbs. not that it will ever see that. but thats only spooling one turbo also. heck i see guys on another forum running blowers and turbos on forged motors at 10 to 1 just means you would have to be spot on on the tune. but it doesnt take as much boost to see really good numbers plus they spool damn fast on a decent size turbo. i was just thinking 8 to 1 is pretty low IMO. plus on 8 .1.1 it would be a dog outta boost. | |
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68 motion [TRAINEE]
Age : 45 Join date : 2010-03-22 Posts : 55
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 1:42 am | |
| well that is a good question,turbo or supercharger.what car you putting it in?will it b the wagon or maybe the fox body you were talking about.with the big block in place how much room do you have to put a good size turbo 3in pipe for the air to move a air to air or water.are you going with fuel injection or are you going to buy a high dollar blow thru carb.how much boost do you want to run.what are your hp goals.is the big block all forged.cast or aluminum heads.if you build one or the other what fuel do you plan to run all the time?if you plan on building a blower motor what cubic inch motor?454 468 496 or 500 plus.under 454 inches 6-71 would be good over 454in 8-71 would be better.with the rite combo for each setup ,a supercharged engine with 6 to 8 lbs can make up to 1000 hp.now you can add 10+ pounds of boost to 8-71 and make a ton more power but remember that now you need a double keyed forged crankshaft.a turbo all you need is a great forged bottom end and boost away.keep in mind that out for blood ran a little 427 bbc with a blower way smaller then a 6-71 and ran real low 10s.tune your dual carbs and run your car. i like the idea of both builds pick one and use the best parts and you will not be unhappy.take a look on streetfire and youtube and look at both turbo and supercharged setups. look at how much room there is with each combo,look at fit and finish.let all of us know what way u are going.if i can help let me know.GOOD LUCK | |
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Dr.Auto [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 45 Join date : 2009-09-24 Posts : 977 Location : Lockwood, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 10:20 am | |
| Eh..... lets just settle the debate and say..... tuning is inevitable. Learn to love it or don't work on cars. Having said that..... do both supercharger and turbocharger. Josh would be proud of you. lol My personal opinion: I have absolutely no use for a turbo charged car but in just a few applications. I'm not into drag racing either though. I would say that a turbo will work best for a drag car...... or a street rod that you just want to go super fast in a straight line because it can produce the best over all power. I personally don't really care about CONSTANTLY fiddling with stuff and tweaking every last ounce of power out of an engine and running on the ragged edge of potential. I like building engines that make good power throughout the entire RPM range and plenty safe on pump gas. Totally reliable even though I rod the piss out of it.... I mean I try to build something that will last at least 5years worth of fun.... cause I don't have the money to constantly fix stuff that blows up. lol I've had the chance to build one supercharged engine.... help tune my buddies supercharge engine.... and am currently building another supercharged engine for my car. I like superchargers...... why? Because they are predictable.... yes they run a hotter charge and inter-coolers aren't as effective but everything about it is predictable. No unexpected boost surges, lags, oil temp.... superchargers just work dependent on charge temp/air density, RPM, and load. Yes a supercharger can make more power on this same engine. But I like old faithful. Now I'm not saying that turbo chargers are not dependable and are bad... that is not my point. They are just way more complicated with figuring out boost maps, with way more math variables. And guys will argue you can Google boost maps and its all figured out for you.... but... not really. There are too many variables between Google and YOUR engine for it to be directly relative. Usable info yes... but not exactly relative especially since something as simple as ambient temp plays a role in the boost map. But anyways.... I vote supercharger.... but I like to just build stuff and enjoy it for a good long while before I do something else. I also like to road race.... and that requires reliable usable power. I'm not a drag racer. I'm not interested in breaking into 8's and breaking half the car over and over for two years before I do it..... the saying "you aren't going fast enough unless you're breaking stuff" is so true in the drag racing realm. And you really have to tweak stuff right to the raged edge of reliability to truly go real fast. I don't have the money for that.... I'm a Po Boy. So I shoot for reliable usable power. which you can obtain with a turbocharger.... but it requires staying on the side of caution. Superchargers TYPICALLY stay on the side of caution naturally. Oh..... and carburetors...... belong in a pile of ancient car parts with drum brakes. I HATE them both. lol That's my OPINION.... and Forest Gump agrees. Now wheres my box of chocolates? ...... | |
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bender460 [TRAINEE]
Join date : 2010-02-28 Posts : 76 Location : Great Falls
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 1:31 pm | |
| I'd go turbo with injection, supercherged with carbs. BUT either one can fail.....EASILY fail. I don't mean blow up or anything like that. What I mean is going 10's with 8 second parts. Nothing like seeing a 700rwhp super snake knock off a blistering 13.5 sec ET. Having said that a lot more than a dyno number goes into getting a car to E.T. good. N.A. can work well as well as nitrous. I'm the opposite of Matt. I like to ring every last bit of ET out of what I have. The challenge is fun not so much the ET or dyno number. You also have to work within your budget. | |
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tgierke [TRAINEE]
Age : 32 Join date : 2011-04-11 Posts : 51 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 3:18 pm | |
| Thanx for the input guys right now im thinking about dropping it into a 63 chevy half ton i got the th400 sitting here to suppourt it and a 12 bolt posi with the 323 i was looking at twins due to the fact that i havent seen many twin gasoline chevys around. it would be mainly a show piece. might get out on the highway some seeing hows i dont possibly see hooking the amount of power that would go thru the engine. However my 92 dodge is a different story but i have yet to find twin turbo exhaust manifolds for it that werent rediculously expensive. | |
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Jfive [TRAINEE]
Age : 41 Join date : 2011-01-19 Posts : 85 Location : Columbia Falls
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 7:01 pm | |
| I have to say I agree with bender460. Efi with turbo is pretty easy to tune. Problem I have with supercharges is they have to go in one place and one place only. A turbo can go anywhere, and exspecially with a truck. The nice thing is turbos are easier on the engine, so you can get more power out of the motor before something will break. I also perfer the sound of a turbo spooling over the whine of a supercharger. Turbo maps are overrated in my opionion. All you really need to know is how many cubs your gonna have, what hp your trying to shoot for, and how the heads flow, and what rpm your gonna run to. Most turbo companys can figure it out for ya. Bullseye turbos are cheap and come in various sizes. I would do a single turbo over a twin setup, as you could get a turbo for 600 to 800 that would be good for 700 to 1200hp. A supercharger with this type of flow would cost 4 to 5 times as much. If you decided to go turbo I got lots of info. Gonna build a single turbo V8 ranger after I am done with my 4cly one. Should be 1000hp. Gonna cost alot less than the supercharger route I had originally thought up. Some video for ya to check out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcOG67eT-F4&feature=player_embedded | |
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Cyfun [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 39 Join date : 2010-01-26 Posts : 864 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 7:52 pm | |
| A biturbo setup would be nice if you're worried about boost lag, but a 3500rpm stall converter solves that problem. I think building a good EFI 350 and finding a single big turbo off of a diesel truck or something would be the easiest to build and maintain, as well as the best bang for the buck. And speaking of youtube videos, this is more up your alley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSZ05X3H-xE&feature=fvwrel | |
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shawnss [MASTER TECH]
Age : 39 Join date : 2009-09-23 Posts : 1571 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 12th 2011, 8:14 pm | |
| see what else is nice about boost. isl lil cubic motor can make great power. this truck is only 370 cubic inch its the stock block bored .030 over. pretty crazy he put down 1100hp on 20psi and tons of meth https://youtu.be/MwJYPsJfDvE | |
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Novaflash2002 [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 37 Join date : 2009-09-26 Posts : 823 Location : Great Falls, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 12:07 pm | |
| - Jfive wrote:
- Turbo maps are overrated in my opionion. All you really need to know is how many cubs your gonna have, what hp your trying to shoot for, and how the heads flow, and what rpm your gonna run to. Most turbo companys can figure it out for ya.
Hmm. I do not agree with this opion at all. The mapping of the turbo is key for the use of the engine. where and what are you driving, what is it being used for. what is the weight of the vehicle, what transmission, stall, final gear ratio ? Head flow isnt something that you need to worry about. Your forcing air through, not drawing it through. There is no point in having a 88mm p trim turbo for a car that could use a 76mm f trim and have more average/usable power over more peak power. It is nice when you can call someone up they say "yea you need a precision pt-88 for your application". But they don't tell you the driving characteristics. | |
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Dr.Auto [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 45 Join date : 2009-09-24 Posts : 977 Location : Lockwood, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 1:17 pm | |
| - Novaflash2002 wrote:
- But they don't tell you the driving characteristics.
This has always been my pet peeve with turbo guys. So many of them are just in the boat of saying oh.... just throw a turbo on it.... it don't matter. just reach in the bag of skittles and use whatever you get. you made an awesome point chris. | |
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Dr.Auto [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 45 Join date : 2009-09-24 Posts : 977 Location : Lockwood, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 1:20 pm | |
| - Jfive wrote:
- The nice thing is turbos are easier on the engine, so you can get more power out of the motor before something will break.
You realize you said that out loud? I would be curious how you support this OPINION. | |
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smd [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 43 Join date : 2010-04-06 Posts : 277 Location : Park City, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 5:46 pm | |
| - Dr.Auto wrote:
- Jfive wrote:
- The nice thing is turbos are easier on the engine, so you can get more power out of the motor before something will break.
You realize you said that out loud?
I would be curious how you support this OPINION. He is correct. Blowers put parasitic drag on the motor due to being belt driven. Superchargers use horsepower to make horsepower. Two equal horse power motors, one being turbo and the other being supercharged, the blower puts more stress on the motor than the turbo. | |
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Dr.Auto [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 45 Join date : 2009-09-24 Posts : 977 Location : Lockwood, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 6:57 pm | |
| I guess I wasn't looking at it in a drive accessory view point. In that aspect.... yes I agree.
I was thinking in the term of hard engine parts taking boost. | |
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fastback959 [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 39 Join date : 2010-01-17 Posts : 460 Location : Billings
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 10:20 pm | |
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shawnss [MASTER TECH]
Age : 39 Join date : 2009-09-23 Posts : 1571 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 10:24 pm | |
| ^^^^ thats just way over done. but one thing that really stands out is why r they adding fuel during the intake charge on the turbos?? maybe everything is so tight in there that im missing something? but if not that means they are shooting raw fuel on top of the blowers and though the intake of the turbos i guess it would have to be something to check out in person. | |
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Jfive [TRAINEE]
Age : 41 Join date : 2011-01-19 Posts : 85 Location : Columbia Falls
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 13th 2011, 11:15 pm | |
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Dr.Auto [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 45 Join date : 2009-09-24 Posts : 977 Location : Lockwood, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 14th 2011, 12:03 am | |
| you know whats really freaking insane? That looks like its in boat! lol wow?
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fastback959 [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 39 Join date : 2010-01-17 Posts : 460 Location : Billings
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tgierke [TRAINEE]
Age : 32 Join date : 2011-04-11 Posts : 51 Location : Billings, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 17th 2011, 4:02 pm | |
| Awesome thanx guys u were alot of help and i decided first thing is first build my engine to hold alot of boost weather its turbo or supercharged but i need to run efi, however im still leaning towards the turbo side just cus its cheaper and i dont need to make insane hp or psi on this setup......... yet | |
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Flaminghellcat [NEWBIE]
Join date : 2011-04-19 Posts : 47 Location : Eastern MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 21st 2011, 5:19 am | |
| - shawnss wrote:
- Jfive wrote:
- I'd go 8 to 1 depending on what elevation your at, and what elevation the area you plan on running it at. A 350 is good for about 700 to 800 hp in turbo form. I would go for about 15 to 20 psi. Get some RHS aluminum heads, best bang for the buck, get a turbo cam from cammotion, or someone thats great, Have forged pistons, Forged H beams, and a forged steel crank. Don't have to have the best, but a scat or eagle setup would do. Whats it gonna go in. Also TH400 and 3.27 gears. What year motor you building. I got a really good thread for you to read if you have about 5 to 8 hrs to read it.
wow thats some pretty low comp. the motor im putting together now will bee 9.4.1 and it should handle 25lbs. not that it will ever see that. but thats only spooling one turbo also. heck i see guys on another forum running blowers and turbos on forged motors at 10 to 1 just means you would have to be spot on on the tune. but it doesnt take as much boost to see really good numbers plus they spool damn fast on a decent size turbo. i was just thinking 8 to 1 is pretty low IMO. plus on 8 .1.1 it would be a dog outta boost. I agree with your statement with the compression ratio. I am currently running more than 10.5 to 1 in my car now (all forged bottom end). My first setup I tried to use a lower compression ratio (I think it was 8.5 to 1, it was a junkyard build) and yes it was a dog off boost. I ran a vortech supercharger and I had to wait till boost at around 2500 RPM, it kinda was like turbo lag but with a supercharger. It made good HP with that setup at 14 LBS of boost and a meth kit (till it blew up all over the road). Now at a very low boost setting and no intercooler, I am making a ton more HP all through the RPM range. The low RPM performance was like night and day. I have the timing way advanced so it acts like a N/A motor Low RPM's and gradually retard the timing at higher RPM's and/or I get into boost. Fuel is pretty straight forward as far as WOT, but is a quite tricky with part throttle and tip in. But not to bad, you just need to sit down and work it out. I use a 12 to 1 FMU and a Anderson PMS for fuel and timing. I like this set up so much I am installing a intercooler with the meth kit and more boost (real boost)!! | |
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smd [ENTHUSIAST]
Age : 43 Join date : 2010-04-06 Posts : 277 Location : Park City, MT
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 21st 2011, 7:09 am | |
| Hey Waylon, welcome to the forum finally! What took you so long to become a member!? I think I met you 6 months ago at a meet at city brew in the heights! Hope to see you at some more events this year! You should start a newbie intro thread in the general section with some build pics.... | |
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BlueSteel [GARAGE NUT]
Age : 30 Join date : 2009-11-26 Posts : 929 Location : Billings
| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block April 21st 2011, 1:01 pm | |
| - smd wrote:
- Hey Waylon, welcome to the forum finally! What took you so long to become a member!? I think I met you 6 months ago at a meet at city brew in the heights! Hope to see you at some more events this year! You should start a newbie intro thread in the general section with some build pics....
Word. | |
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| Subject: Re: turbo or supercharger for my big block | |
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| turbo or supercharger for my big block | |
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