lets talk brake pads!

Ok so picked up some "good" break pads that are ceramic, and when the start heating up they are great, but after 1 100mph to 0 stop they cant stop worth shit, with my drill/slotted roters, ss brake lines and etc. my old 20$ metallic pads did a great job at lewistown and scca. Now im thinking about doing the EBC green/yellow/red, or hawks. Now what would you guys recommend for this price/performance wise? these will be used just for lewistown and scca as well as the way home from any location. then i will swap them again.

thoughts?

discuss!

this is for a 2000 2.5rs subaru impreza. please post rough prices of items to and etc.

Also im thinking price wise around $70? just for the front, since the rears really don't get to hot obviously compared to the front and i think the rears i have on now will work fine.

I upgraded my front pads to a set of Hawk pads and love them to death!! Don't remember what I paid but I belive around $65. Signifigant decrease in fade over stock. Made the seond Lewistown MUCH better than the first!

What ceramic pads are you using?

Just because they are ceramic does not mean they will work better.... In fact a good metalic will work better.... but usually make more noise.


I would never use EBC.... I think they are worse than a stock pad given my experiance with them so far. I have no opinion on hawks as I have never used them.

I will highly recommend proterfield or carbotech pads though. I personally love the carbotechs. the cars I have used them on have been awesome and have yet to fade.... ever at Lewistown.

But they are expensive compared to what you're looking at. a set is about $160. The porterfields even more. But you get what you pay for

The Hawk HPS pads are not that great. They are the top of the line in their street category and I melted them down at Lewistown, they ended up becoming very brittle and falling off the backing plate. This was on a 3500 pound car with too small of brakes so they may work better for others. I have seen the HP+ used and they seem pretty good. They are at the bottom of the race category and are the ones used by lots of autocross people as they are still good without having to warm them up. The rest of the race pads need heat to work well so they are not recommended for anything driven on the street. If my crx ever makes it to the track I will let you know how they do.

Dr.Auto wrote:

What ceramic pads are you using?

Just because they are ceramic does not mean they will work better.... In fact a good metalic will work better.... but usually make more noise.


I would never use EBC.... I think they are worse than a stock pad given my experiance with them so far. I have no opinion on hawks as I have never used them.

I will highly recommend proterfield or carbotech pads though. I personally love the carbotechs. the cars I have used them on have been awesome and have yet to fade.... ever at Lewistown.

But they are expensive compared to what you're looking at. a set is about $160. The porterfields even more. But you get what you pay for

I have some just some quiet brake type pads from oriellys, nothing crazy. but the cheapo ones i had from there that where metallic did so much better ha, my rotors didnt like them but they did well. idk carbotech are alittle pricy at the moment (129$), maybe later down the line.

would like some more to chime in as well and tell me there experiences

X2 on Hawk pads, they are pretty good. Match them with some powerslot rotors and you'll be happy for a long time.

Make sure you don't get the cheap drilled rotors, mine cracked very bad the first time I took it to Lewistown. They only cracked on the holes, not the slots. If you spend enough money the drilled ones are supposed to be OK, but the good ones are about $200 a piece.

I just put carbotech xp8 on all four of my civic. A little too agrassive for autocross, but I am getting use to them. They are amazing for high speed stops. I had xp6 on the front last year and stock on the rear. They worked very well as well. I run them all year as well because it takes too long to break them in to the the rotor serface. swapping back and forth to stock pads is too much of a pain in the long run. I may put the stock ones on for the winter but that is about it. I spent over 300 for all four xp8. Well worth it, but would recomend the xp6's. Dont skimp out on breaks. As with anything, you get what you pay for.

sxpkpower wrote:

Make sure you don't get the cheap drilled rotors, mine cracked very bad the first time I took it to Lewistown. They only cracked on the holes, not the slots. If you spend enough money the drilled ones are supposed to be OK, but the good ones are about $200 a piece.

I had bought a cheaper set with a warranty unlike most, i took mine up to lewistown prob about 2-3 times now, no cracks =D knock on wood though haha. had them for over a year or 2 now. (scca and lewistown)


yeah i dont want to go cheap on brakes but i think the HPS are what im leaning towards for price and performance for temporarily. last time i used cheap 35$ dollar pads for a lewistown meet and boy i seriously got those smoking! it was pretty awesome, but they did pretty well for 35$ so im hoping the HPS will do alot better haha

EBC yellowstuffs are the suff imo.

Use dedicated pads for track, unless you can stand the squealing, in which case, do not swap them out!

I have had great luck with Carbotechs. XP10's are great track day pads, but they are too noisy for me for street use.

I have used EBC red stuff pads and have experienced EBC yellow stuff pads they work great. Like Matt and Max stated if you want a great pad you get what you pay for and Carbotechs are a great pad. For the driving you are going to be doing, the Carbotech AX6 will work awesome or the EBC Yellow Stuff from my stand point.

I would not use anything less than XP8 for track duty, even on the rear. I will have the STI at Lewistown in two weeks. You can ride along and see how the XP10's make you feel. Or, if you have a weak stomach, you can take Steve's word for it!

The AX6 would be fine for anything short of track use. FYI- the carbotech street pads (panther or something they are called) completely suck. Worse than OEM pads on my S2000.

Quick question. Of those going to lewistown, who is running a good race pad? meaning break pads ment for racing, ie. not some cheap ricerboy knock off or oe equivilant.

f20bmt wrote:

f20bmt wrote:

EBC yellowstuffs are the suff imo.

I am still not sold on EBC at all.... I have yet to experience a set that holds up to my driving style. I have never experienced brake fad with the carbotechs I've used.

And the Willwood pads I have on the X-1/9 have NEVER faded.... even from my 115mph dynamite braking on the back stretch at lewistown.

I cannot tolerate pads that heat fade....

Word!

max2075 wrote:

Quick question. Of those going to lewistown, who is running a good race pad? meaning break pads ment for racing, ie. not some cheap ricerboy knock off or oe equivilant.

ME


The XP10's on the STI almost made Steve puke, and he only rode for a few laps.

rwheelz wrote:

max2075 wrote:

Quick question. Of those going to lewistown, who is running a good race pad? meaning break pads ment for racing, ie. not some cheap ricerboy knock off or oe equivilant.

ME


The XP10's on the STI almost made Steve puke, and he only rode for a few laps.

Ya..... but you me, Max..... but who else? Most people I know just get a "performance" pad.... not a track pad.

rwheelz wrote:

max2075 wrote:

Quick question. Of those going to lewistown, who is running a good race pad? meaning break pads ment for racing, ie. not some cheap ricerboy knock off or oe equivilant.

ME


The XP10's on the STI almost made Steve puke, and he only rode for a few laps.

Yeah i cannot afford a track pad this run, so im just going with the Basic HPS, but RJ has some sick pads, those made me light headed. I cant wait to get some more performance mods, then im going all out on the brake system again, the brake system i have is pretty damn good not going to lie. ha. but has room for better, but for the price no. Ill be doing brembos or stoptechs hopefully later down the line if i dont sell my car.

are you bringing the STI this time RJ or s2k?
ps- after the next upgrade im going carbotech all the way, never going back, after one ride with rj i fell in love with that pad ha, rode with you rj the only time your brought your STi i believe?

monkeybear wrote:

I have used EBC red stuff pads and have experienced EBC yellow stuff pads they work great. Like Matt and Max stated if you want a great pad you get what you pay for and Carbotechs are a great pad. For the driving you are going to be doing, the Carbotech AX6 will work awesome or the EBC Yellow Stuff from my stand point.

you can pick those up at your local midas right

im gonna run ricerknock off max where do i get them and r the expensive?

For those who have not experienced a bunch of different pads and compounds, keep in mind that the braking FEEL you get will vary by manufacturer. Carbotechs are known for being a little slower to bite than some of the other brands. For me, this works perfectly for everything other than end-of-straights braking, where I think a pad with more initial bite would be an improvement. Regardless, I have been using Carbotechs strictly for track pads for some time now on all of my cars. I would like to try something new, but with several cars maintaining the consistency is important especially when at least one of them doesn't have ABS. I find Carbotechs are easy to modulate at the limit.

Snakebite- The S2000 isn't tuned well enough to run at Lewistown for this first event. I would prefer to have it, and it would probably survive, but why take a chance. I should have it properly tuned before the second event. Hopefully it is a nice cool day and the STI withstands the punishment.

As always, people are welcome to ride along and see what real deal track pads with wide sticky tires willl do on an STI. I guarantee you will be wishing for a harness by the end of the back straight! It is a tremendous improvement over stock, and you can brake just as hard lap after lap after lap even with stock calipers/rotors/lines.

Also, I would not run the lower Hawk pads for anything other than street use, and even then I wouldn't buy them personally. However, the Hawk DTC 60/70 are known for being incredibly aggressive. I am tempted to try a set when my STI carbotechs wear out. I was told not to use them on long tracks without running brake ducts.

rwheelz wrote:

For those who have not experienced a bunch of different pads and compounds, keep in mind that the braking FEEL you get will vary by manufacturer. Carbotechs are known for being a little slower to bite than some of the other brands. For me, this works perfectly for everything other than end-of-straights braking, where I think a pad with more initial bite would be an improvement. Regardless, I have been using Carbotechs strictly for track pads for some time now on all of my cars. .

Glad you brought that up RJ, I think the pad feel varies on the car used on too. The carbotechs Max had on his Civic bite very hard (which was why i performed my rotating exhibition stunt on the freashly tarred track.... there was no feedback.. just bit, wheels locked and never spun back up) But keep in mind they are bigger rotors and calipers than stock so this may be the main contributing factor to their bite.

But the whole key with pad compound is finding something that gives you the feel you want..... but resists heat fade for the driving you do. Because trust me..... nothing will make you crap your pants more than having good brakes...... then all of a sudden..... no brakes! well... almost no brakes..... you just have to press really hard on the pedal and get very little response from your effort. This means the pad material is out of its operating range and is too hot. As soon as they cool down they work normal again.

rwheelz wrote:

As always, people are welcome to ride along and see what real deal track pads with wide sticky tires willl do on an STI. I guarantee you will be wishing for a harness by the end of the back straight! It is a tremendous improvement over stock, and you can brake just as hard lap after lap after lap even with stock calipers/rotors/lines.

And..... notate.... that the STI has stock suspension, brakes, and drivetrain as far as I know. Just tire and brake pad improovments. And noone will be passing RJ for some reason. lol

So is there a pad that would be adequate for track-use (rarely as we run 2-3x a year) and day-to-day use? I know someone mentioned one that produced a lot of noise for their taste on the day-to-day commuting. I have to admit that I hesitate throwing a bunch of money into hi-performance parts for my WRX cause she's my daily driver.

92civic wrote:

monkeybear wrote:

I have used EBC red stuff pads and have experienced EBC yellow stuff pads they work great. Like Matt and Max stated if you want a great pad you get what you pay for and Carbotechs are a great pad. For the driving you are going to be doing, the Carbotech AX6 will work awesome or the EBC Yellow Stuff from my stand point.

you can pick those up at your local midas right

HA! you would say something like that and you can get some if you pay me lots of money.

brnin8r wrote:

So is there a pad that would be adequate for track-use (rarely as we run 2-3x a year) and day-to-day use? I know someone mentioned one that produced a lot of noise for their taste on the day-to-day commuting. I have to admit that I hesitate throwing a bunch of money into hi-performance parts for my WRX cause she's my daily driver.

It depends how hard you want to be able to push it on track. If you want to be able to go hard for 30min straight or more in a track session without backing off to baby the brakes, then no, there is not a pad capable of doing both well.

I have a question for you RJ, I was wondering how your track pads work for autocross. I have heard from a few people that the hard core track pads need heat to work well so they aren't the best for autocross. What are your thoughts on this since I know you have first hand experience.

sxpkpower wrote:

I have a question for you RJ, I was wondering how your track pads work for autocross. I have heard from a few people that the hard core track pads need heat to work well so they aren't the best for autocross. What are your thoughts on this since I know you have first hand experience.

Yes, Please elaborate. Because so far my experience with "track" pads..... although they aren't really crazy hard core track pads... is that even when cold..... they still perform better then a O.E. pad. they just aren't very predictable in their grip level from stop to stop until they are up to temperature.

Dr.Auto wrote:

Yes, Please elaborate. Because so far my experience with "track" pads..... although they aren't really crazy hard core track pads... is that even when cold..... they still perform better then a O.E. pad. they just aren't very predictable in their grip level from stop to stop until they are up to temperature.

I do realize they will grip better than OE pads even cold, I guess I was wondering how they would be compared to a pad designed for SCCA use versus a true track pad. Each manufacturer has a pad for autocross use without heat build up and that is what I have always used. I have been happy with their performance for a autocross, but they do not handle Lewistown very well. I was wondering if next time I bought the true track pads if they would cross over for autocross use without problems.

sxpkpower wrote:

Dr.Auto wrote:

Yes, Please elaborate. Because so far my experience with "track" pads..... although they aren't really crazy hard core track pads... is that even when cold..... they still perform better then a O.E. pad. they just aren't very predictable in their grip level from stop to stop until they are up to temperature.

I do realize they will grip better than OE pads even cold, I guess I was wondering how they would be compared to a pad designed for SCCA use versus a true track pad. Each manufacturer has a pad for autocross use without heat build up and that is what I have always used. I have been happy with their performance for a autocross, but they do not handle Lewistown very well. I was wondering if next time I bought the true track pads if they would cross over for autocross use without problems.

Talk to Max.... he's been running "track" pads this whole year so far. He's been complaining about unpredictable bite when cold. Once they are warm they work awesome.

A couple of times I found the breaks to be a bit weak when I first leave in the AM from home, but hitting them once puts in plenty of heat for then to work great on the street. On autocross I have had no problems with lack of bite. If anything, they are agressive, but after some more experience with them, I would not use anything less. They are carbotech ax8 and I loved them at lewistown this last weekend.

Max what is a break u mean brakes correct me off I'm wrong but midas sells breaks Lmao nice story tho

92civic wrote:

Max what is a break u mean brakes correct me off I'm wrong but midas sells breaks Lmao nice story tho

Ya Jesse..... Max KEEPS making that same mistake and it's irratating me. lol.... I don't know why he keeps talking about breaks..... they have nothing to do with a race car.

Or maybe he's talking about slacking off as usual.... Or perhaps he means to be talking about brakes. I don't know for sure.... maybe he will clear this up for us..... I think he just needs some learning... because he repetably makes that mistake... even in the Lewistown 2011 thread he was talking about breaks.... and it ticked me off enough.... I went in and changed it to brakes. lol

oh yeah Im ready to get off break and go back to work....LOL but dr says NO

That is funny. I know how to spell brakes, but I didn't notice I was doing it wrong. I guess it is my Lockwood education shining through. I was also worried about calling them pads and not shoes. That really bothers Matt.

ya cuz matt uses boots i can see how that bothers him

He is a little touchy!

but not touchy and feelie. lol

Here is my take on this- dedicated pads for a dedicated purpose!

You will never get track pads up their optimal operating temp at autocross, especially not locally on our relatively small courses. I know you guys have seen me at solo events with XP10s. Since Lewistown is this Sat and SCCA Sun, I won't switch back to street pads before the autocross event and will be doing just this. Can you get by street driving and autocrossing with a set of XP8 or even XP10? Definitely. The XP10s squeal 10x worse than a city bus after a couple of days of street driving. I mean it is an ear-piercing shrill and people are staring. The same pads on my S2000 squeak occasionally, but nowhere near as loudly. It probably has to do with the caliper design and the size of the contact patch between pad and rotor. There is no doubt that street pads work better for autocross than the XP10 on my STI. When running 275 R-compounds, regular pads will not fade and can lock up the tires instantly. Even at the Helena course, regular pads are more than up to the task.

If you are street driving, remember that XP10-level pads won't be awesome at the first stop, or after driving without the brakes for a while (another first-stop in terms of temp). IMO, this is not the real problem with running track pads for street driving though. It isn't the "what-if-I-can't-get stopped" due to the pads being cold that bothers me, it's that the pads wear at an unreasonable rate and also chew up the rotors because they are always running cold. They scrape the bedded pad material off the disc, which contributes to the fast wear of both pads/rotors. These pads are expensive and are wasted in day to day driving. To even have the performance benefit you will be forced to re-bed them weekly for your weekend canyon runs. I would guess that if you feel you have lost a lot of initial bite running track pads on the street, it is more because there is no pad material on the disc, rather than due to the pads being cold. The repeated application of an aggressive cold pad against the rotor is sanding them clean every day. This leads me bedding...

Read the instructions and follow them. Any of you who have read the Carbotech instructions know how serious this is. In order to simulate track-bedding I drive way out of town where I have long straight stretches to bed them in. It is NOT easy to do properly and I nearly make myself sick every time I do it. It is one of those things I really hate to do!

Here is my advice (I am not an expert, opinion may vary, I cannot be held accountable, etc):

-->If you want to track the car hard safely, get dedicated track pads. I use Carbotech XP10 and have been through several sets. I have also used XP8 and these may be more appropriate for someone who has less experience. You might THINK that you are braking hard, but you aren't yet. Ride along with someone who is braking harder than you and be honest with yourself- no sense buying more pad than you need. On the contrary, if you want a really aggressive pad, try the Hawk DTC I suggested above. I have not used them myself, but a very close friend I trust, who is experienced, has been running them on his STI. He said they are way too aggressive for street driving. If you want a progressive pad, the Carbotechs are awesome. After a few sets, the modulation will be built into your muscle memory!

-->If you want to compete nationally in autocross, get a dedicated autocross-type pad that has great initial bite and will work well at low temps. Every margin matters here and if you truly want to compete, you need the right gear.

Here is what I actually do myself:

-->Track pads for track time. STI- XP10, S2000- XP10/XP8, MR2's- XP8 (never had an MR2 fast enough to warrant XP10).

-->Autocross - street pads. I am too lazy to change out pads just for autocross, even on the STI where I am switching wheels anyway and the pads are really easy to change. If I was trying to compete at a high level, I would definitely use good pads. On the S2000 I like the OEM pads. STI runs carbotech street pads (I think they are called bobcats?), but I would like to try their autocross pad (called AX6, I think?).

Here is a little autocross tip for the noobs- every pad works and feels the best when within its operating range. Even stock pads work better if you warm them up a bit first. I had someone come up to me and ask why I was riding my brakes as I pulled up to the starting line in Helena (if you haven't been there, they have a small road course section so it is far superior to a local scca event). I thought everybody did this! Put some heat into the pads so you aren't locking them up into that first braking zone, because you are forced to compensate for cold pads by applying more pressure on the pedal.

Again, your experience may vary! If your car is heavier or lighter, it will alter what compound works best. Larger/wider/stickier wheels/tires also make a big difference when you get on track in terms of how much brake you need. There is no need for XP12s on a car with 5" discs and rolling on 12" pizza cutters, you just need to cut a hole in the floor pan Flinstone's-style

PS- I lot of OEM pads are fine in my opinion. They bite right, last a long time, and don't produce a lot of corrosive dust. Now, OEM 2008 STI pads are complete shit! Mine were cracking after 2000 miles having never seen a track day or even an autocross.