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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 10:02 am

Got some bad news but it could have been a lot worse.... (coppied from a post on a differant forum)

This past Saturday was our first of three Track Day events of the year and I got a buddy of mine to trailer the Venge up to the track. It was a rainy, crappy day but that's never stopped us from running in the past so we unloaded and warmed up the cars and got ready to run. We only had 11 cars show up due to bad flooding across the state so we only had one run group and I headed out about in the middle of the pack. I've been runnin 10psi for about a month now and it felt amazing coming out of the turns and down the straights! On my 3rd lap I got flagged into the pits because something was wrong with my car. I pulled in and instantly smelt burnt oil. There was blue smoke billowing out the exhaust. Needless to say this was the end of my track day and we trailered her up and went home to my warm, dry home to play Forza the rest of the day.

Well tonight if finally stopped raining (it's been pouring for 2 weeks straight) and I decided to run a compression test. With this come good news and bad, but expected, news. Good news is the burning oil is NOT from a fubard piston ring! Bad news, which I already figured, is that my motor is tired lol. My numbers were 145, 150, 145, 150. Normal for the 420a is around 170.

Also while I was warming up the motor for the test I made a little video and took a picture of the oil that is seeping out around the exhaust turbine of the turbo. Tomorrow I plan to take the turbo off and take it apart to get a look inside at wtfs up.

VIDEO:
Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Th_CIMG2504

Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue CIMG2503


Last edited by ZipDriveX on July 7th 2011, 11:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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brnin8r
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 12:13 pm

If you need an extra set of hands, let me know.
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 1:15 pm

Probably just need another ebay turbo Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 2:09 pm

At least that compression is consistent across the board, and you know that the main problem is the turvo. Could you just throw a seal kit at it, or you gonna just replace the whole bugger? That's a T-25, right?
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 3:12 pm

Not sure if I want to just fix this turbo or get a new one. This one has some sideways shaft play that gives me doubts. I'll probably just end up buying a new turbo so I'm not worried about it blowing again. It's a .48ar T3 turbo actually Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 3:14 pm

Ah nice. Yeah, just get a new one. Might spend some mo money and get a good quality one. Worth it in terms of reliability, no?
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 3:23 pm

Don't need a top of the line expensive one, Preferably around $250 that will last me around 3 years on 10psi lol.
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Cyfun
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 3:23 pm

I see a lot for around $200. Are Godspeed's products any good?
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 3:25 pm

Godspeed is a popular brand that pops up when I search for ".48ar T3 Turbo" on google. They seem to usually be around $200 like you said. Maybe I'll throw up a post or do some research on DSMTuners and 2GNT to see what their thoughts are on the brand.
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repsofchrist
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 4:31 pm

That is good/bad news. But like Cy said, atleast your compression is consistant. Props again for runnin' it man!
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b1r - TS
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 4:32 pm

$200 for a new turbo is extremely cheap...... you always get what you pay for!

There are lots of things in the car industry that are over priced and can be made cheaper with minimal sacrifice. Turbo's are not one of those items! The biggest cost savings for these companies is paying for skilled labor and a QA/QC system. So looking at reviews online for these turbo's is pointless because they have no set standards. One turbo might be awesome, while the very next one might last 2 seconds.
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 4:38 pm

Godspeed seems to be a cheap ebay performance brand. I've read of people having no problems with them and people that say that they are cheap but have no information to back it up at all. I wish people would only post what they actually know for FACT and not just "oh it's junk cause a buddy of mine has a friend that had a bad one". But with larger forums there seem to be plenty of these kind of people giving advice lol.

The turbo that is on my car right now has absolutely no name brand on it at all. Just a plate that says "Turbocharger" so I'm pretty sure I've been running a godspeed/turbo xs/ebay turbo the whole time. What brand/site would you recomend Jake? Anyone that has any experiances with differant brands please chime in Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 4:44 pm

Ask jdmsolutions on here he started off with ebay turbo and he will tell you that there is a huge difference in buying some ebay turbo vs a name brand like garrett or precision. I would take a used precision or garrett over a new ebay turbo anyday!
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 5:05 pm

JP doesn't get on here too often I don't belive, maybe I'll message him on Facebook. The reasoning for my first thoughts to be on getting a cheaper turbo is I just need to to last me a couple years at 10psi until I can afford to do my rebuild where I will then be needing a better turbo. I understand the "get what you pay for" aspect, but at this present time I don't see the need to buy a $500 turbo when a $200 will work just fine with my setup. But then again this is something I'm not very experianced with and hence why I started this thread to learn more Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 5:10 pm

I am not talking about JP. Jake fox is (jdmsolutions) He drives a red EF like JP but way cleaner! Put it this way you can spend the $200 like 2,3,4 times and in that time you could have already bought a decent entry level name brand quality built turbo!!
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 5:26 pm

EGJDM wrote:
I am not talking about JP. Jake fox is (jdmsolutions) He drives a red EF like JP but way cleaner! Put it this way you can spend the $200 like 2,3,4 times and in that time you could have already bought a decent entry level name brand quality built turbo!!

Ahh, I had my usernames mixed up then. And the fact that his car is about the same didn't help either. I deffenantly hear ya on the on the buy it once and be done concept. I have a lot of thinking/saving to do anyway so I won't be making a rush decision lol. Thanks for you input man!!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 6:27 pm

ZipDriveX wrote:
EGJDM wrote:
I am not talking about JP. Jake fox is (jdmsolutions) He drives a red EF like JP but way cleaner! Put it this way you can spend the $200 like 2,3,4 times and in that time you could have already bought a decent entry level name brand quality built turbo!!

Ahh, I had my usernames mixed up then. And the fact that his car is about the same didn't help either. I deffenantly hear ya on the on the buy it once and be done concept. I have a lot of thinking/saving to do anyway so I won't be making a rush decision lol. Thanks for you input man!!

hey come on now, you saying my car is about the same as jps is like saying your car is about the same as an intrepid, like a slap in the face! Sad , anyways, imo the ebay turbo is a waste of time, i switched from a 50trim ebay piece of junk to a 57 trim precision, i was about like you, didnt see how it could make much difference, but believe me, the difference was night and day! plus i didnt have to worry anymore about my turbo falling in half and shooting a compressor wheel through my block or hood. you can find used holsets and precisions for anywhere from 350-500 dollars,.... just think, if you would have done that the first go around you would be 400 into a entry level garrett or precision that would last, instead of 400 into two paper weights! just an opinion, hope this doesnt come off as insulting or rude!
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 7:31 pm

jdmsolutions wrote:
hey come on now, you saying my car is about the same as jps is like saying your car is about the same as an intrepid, like a slap in the face! Sad ,
I am truley sorry, I honestly don't know much about the differant body styles of Hondas. You both drive red and black hatches and that's all I know since I haven't seen either one of your cars in person in years. Good analogy though, you made me feel your pain pretty deep lol. And thanks for all your input, I'ma gonna start researching on some brands and prices for a new snail. And no, I don't think it came across rude at all. I want honest information, not people kissing my butt telling me to get the cheap lol.
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EGJDM
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 7:40 pm

Go on to honda-tech and get a user name and go to the market place area and go in forced induction classifieds and you should have no trouble finding a quality used turbo!!
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ProOnThaSnow
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 7:52 pm

I'm going to concur with EGJDM and jdmsolutions. You've already spent 1/4 on a junk turbo and it let you down. No sense in being half way into a brand new turbo and having the same problem again. Save a little more and you can find a good quality used turbo on Honda-Tech all day long. You wont regret doing it right and being done with it. Its frustrating to have to repeat and fix the same weak links over and over again (as I am thinking about my completely under rated for my setup axles).

Good Luck!
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ZipDriveX
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 1st 2011, 7:59 pm

I didn't exactly choose this turbo the first time lol. It came with the used kit that I got off another forum and he kinda half assed the kit together with sme cheap parts (like the turbo). I am going to take both of your guys advice and check around on HT. Let me know if you guys happen to hear of a .48ar on there too!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 3rd 2011, 5:03 pm

Gonna be a week or so before I can start tearing into her. My parents are coming to town to visit tomorrow with their full size motorhome and will be taking up all my driveway space for few days so I have to move the Venge out of their way. Once they're back on the road I can pull the Venge back up to her normal spot and get the snail pulled off!

Going to try and goodle the serial number on the turbo tonight to see if I can find any information on it at all lol.
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DoodieHead
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 3rd 2011, 7:23 pm

The good news is the motor has some life left. $200 for a turbo! I would get 4!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 4th 2011, 6:36 pm

Keep in mind that you can't compare compression test results from sea level to here. If 170 is normal at sea level then your 145-150 is probably pretty good for up here. Caution: Very fuzzy math follows...

145psi / 12.9psi (our approx pressure) = 11.24 * 14.7 (approx sea level pressure) = 165psi

or

170psi / 14.7 = 11.56 * 12.9 = 149psi normalized for ~3700' elevation.

I'm sure this is simplified a bit, but you get the point. You are starting from a lower pressure thanks to altitude and that lower pressure is magnified by the multiplicative effect of compression.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 15th 2011, 4:51 pm

Still haven't had the time to take the turbo off yet to inspect (hopefully next week) but I've made the decision in order to make it to the Lewistown in July (and hopefully all the other MAEC events this summer) I am going to purchase a Godspeed turbo for around $250. I would rather spend a little now and be able to make it to the rest of the years events then have to miss out on all the events while waiting to save up enough cash for a namebrand one and I've read up a lot on this brand and a lot of people swear by them. It's worth a shot to me.

Also I actually found an old pic of the tag on the turbo on the Venge now that just said "Turbocharger" with some serial number lol.
Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue CIMG0099
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 15th 2011, 5:03 pm

I'd be cautious of the godspeed turbo's, I know of more than a few that didn't last more than 50 miles. Some last longer, some don't. For that price you'd be better off buying a used turbo off ebay. Hard to tell from your pics but you should be able to pick up a used decent name turbo for around that same price. Or just wait till you have more and buy a new turbo. You'd be better off saving and missing some events than smoking and wasting your money at the first event with the new turbo!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 20th 2011, 4:29 pm

After chatting with a fellow boosted Avenger owner for a little bit during work hours, I've decided to try and rebuid my turbo first before I decide to buy a new one. He gave me a link to these kits that I havn't really looked over yet (I know they're ebay so I don't know how much to trust them) but wanted to get some of your guys thoughts on them. And also recomendations to other repair kits or info on rebuilding period are welcome.

Rebuild kit links:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T04E-T04B-T3-T4-TURBO-CHARGER-TURBOCHARGER-REBUILD-KIT-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27bbf62ff2QQitemZ170657198066QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TURBOCHARGER-REBUILD-REBUILT-REPAIR-KIT-T04E-T3-T4-T04B-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2a11902a85QQitemZ180683287173QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Rebuild thread I found on DSMTuners:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-turbo-system-intercooler/316421-t3-turbo-rebuild-part-1-a.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-turbo-system-intercooler/316422-t3-turbo-rebuild-part-2-a.html
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 20th 2011, 10:00 pm

That's a good idea. For that much money, it'd be worth experimenting with. Of course the only issue being that if it turns out to be crap, you never know when you might blow it. But if you're mostly doing track driving, then I guess you won't be too stranded.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 21st 2011, 10:55 am

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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 27th 2011, 10:16 pm

Got my turbo rebuild kit on Saturday and started tearing the turbo down. Unbolting the downpipe revealed the problem:

Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue CIMG2522

After further disassembly the culprit was found. This seal was completely gone when I pulled the shaft out:

Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue CIMG2524

Threw in the new bearings and snap rings, bolted everything back together, and about 90 miles down the road all the excess oil has been burned off and she's running good as new again!! Now lets just hope it something else doesn't go wrong next track day.........
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 28th 2011, 11:32 am

Shweetness!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJune 28th 2011, 11:59 am

Ya, after I passed you this morning Cy it smoked a little bit but that's all so far today Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJuly 7th 2011, 11:45 am

Well this solved a very large portion of my smoking problem but OF COARSE it's not just ONE thing that's causing the problem!

Went for a cruise last night to try and MAKE it smoke and I'm starting to believe it is my valve stem seals. My reasoning for this is that when I first start it up, it usually smokes for a good couple minutes and then disapates. Also when I let it engine brake for a little bit in 3rd, and then give it some throttle... I can see a big ploom of smoke come out the tailpipe. It does the same thing if I leave it in 2nd and go about 10mph basically just letting the idle push the car forward, I will leave a river of smoke in my path.

If I open the hood and give it some throttle a poof of smoke still will come out from around the turbo (I believe from where the turbo meets the downpipe but I can't be sure where exactly cause it comes and goes so fast. Almost looks like it's coming from the wastegate as well)

I think in the next day or so I'm going to take the turbo off and start up the car to let it idle for a few minutes to see if the smoke still appears, thus ruling out that the turbo is still the problem. From there I guess it's time to start learning more about our heads....

Also going to do another compression test tonight (this time adding oil to see if it raises) and I will post EXACT numbers. Just to rule out the rings (hopefully!)

If it's not one thing it's another.......
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Cyfun
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Cyfun


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Join date : 2010-01-26
Posts : 864
Location : Billings, MT

Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Empty
PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJuly 7th 2011, 12:19 pm

Hmm, methinks it's time for a smallblock Chevy swap. Wink
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ZipDriveX
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ZipDriveX


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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJuly 12th 2011, 9:53 am

Well I decided to check my turbo one more time before diving into the motor and found this:

Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue 262154_1984935225440_1305055009_31990049_6738788_n

Once again it's the turbo. Going to be borrowing a turbo tonight and seeing if that fixes the problem. If it does (and I hope it does) then I will be overnighting a turbo to make sure and have it with plenty of time to spare before Lewistown Smile
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Cyfun
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
Cyfun


Age : 39
Join date : 2010-01-26
Posts : 864
Location : Billings, MT

Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Empty
PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitimeJuly 12th 2011, 11:55 am

Eww! So much for those fleabay seals. Get a refund!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue   Help Diagnosing Smoking Issue Icon_minitime

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