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 i need e85!!!

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nate jackson
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PostSubject: i need e85!!!   April 24th 2010, 9:46 am

how long do i have to wait for e85 to get to billings Sad
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 24th 2010, 9:53 am

I dont' know but you let me know when you find it.....lol
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 24th 2010, 10:33 am

only 4 spots in Montana:
Great Falls Malmstrom Air Force Base Private
Helena EZ Stop 1330 N. Montana Ave
West Yellowstone Yellowstone National Park Gateway Community
West Yellow Stone Econo-Mart Phillips 66 307 Firehole Avenue
but,nothing in Billings Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 12:23 am

It'll be a while before we get it here in billings. I would love to run it !!!
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 1:05 am

I have worked on moving ethanol by railcars across the U.S. for the last 8 months.... so I can probably tell you way more than you would ever want to know about ethanol. So i will save the long story and give you just the quick story.

The answer of "when" is no clue. It could be tomorrow if someone feels that it is a "green" fuel and wants to help the world out and put in the equipment. However across the U.S. ethanol is only used in states that have a mandate, which we do not have in Montana and I don't know of any mandates in the work as of today. So in Montana's market they blend ethanol into our fuel when it makes economic sense. So the price of ethanol and gas changes daily, this causes the market for ethanol to be very unperdictable so no one is willing to put any money into these projects. So my guess is it will be years before you see e85 because it cost a significant amount of money to put in the new equipment. But again all that could change if just one hippie tries saving the world by installing e85.

(this is Jake using Jason's account on his computer while we travel)

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 7:53 am

Just like everything else, we will have to wait an additional 3-5 years for something to take off.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 9:24 am

thanks jake that makes sence now Wink
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 2:44 pm

n00b time!! Anyone wanna explain the advantages/disadvantages of e85 in Layman's terms for me? I've heard a little and read a little but I don't fully understand it and I'm sure I'm not the only one........... Add a little more knowledge to the board bounce

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 5:07 pm

Nate how come you want E85? You should be able to get more power out of your car on pump gas if you want and then easily mix some 110 to make 100 octane if you want even more. When I made 460 that was on 91 octane with 1 gallon of C16 just to make up for our poor quality gas. But I drive my car at 18-20 psi and 440 hp on our pump gas everyday. With the larger engine you should easily be able to get around that power level. You may need an intake manifold, but then again if you like drifting your power curve is about perfect with quick midrange power so I wouldn't think you'd want an intake mani unless you want to drag race. Sometime I think about going back to the stock mani knowing I would pick up a lot of midrange power. But since I have big cams and can rev to 9500 the manifold makes a good sense for me, not to mention I have enough Tq to have traction problems already.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   April 25th 2010, 5:42 pm

i guess your right a intake manifold would be nice but the one's for the ka are ugly unless you fab it yourself
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 7th 2010, 8:14 pm

ok sorry for my nooby question but i know what e85 is its ethonal. but how is it good to run in our cars over regular?

2.also does it cost more?

3.Would it make a difference in a Na car with no advanced or retarded timing?

4. same gasmilage or worse or better?

and whats so special about it lol?
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 7th 2010, 8:54 pm

I'll let someone else answer this as far as the specifics go, but over on DSMTuners, there are people making HUGE hp on stock internals with e85 just using like, 2000cc injectors(and obviously some tuning)

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 7th 2010, 9:16 pm

To my understanding running E85 is like running race gas, but you pretty much have to run 2x the injector to make it happen. I have never really investigated this as I will never do the conversion, but there are people that have really good results using it and also people that have had great results not using it.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 8th 2010, 2:00 am

hmm alright helps alittle haha thanks guys
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 8th 2010, 3:56 am

cause E85 and knock dont usually go in the same sentence. Theres srt4 guys running 750/1000cc injectors and a walbro255 making stupid power just switching to E85 on their big turbo setup, it has a really bad habit of eating fuel senders tho ><
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 8th 2010, 6:22 am


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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 8th 2010, 10:01 am

kagekun wrote:
cause E85 and knock dont usually go in the same sentence. Theres srt4 guys running 750/1000cc injectors and a walbro255 making stupid power just switching to E85 on their big turbo setup

Very Happy yah buddy less boost more power!
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 6:43 am

I was actually talking to a guy named Chris yesterday about his 600hp Lancer EVO that was running 35psi. He could not say enough good things about E85.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 9:35 am

DoodieHead [ADMIN] wrote:
I was actually talking to a guy named Chris yesterday about his 600hp Lancer EVO that was running 35psi. He could not say enough good things about E85.
over all it's tha bomb "i need e85"next time i build a map it will be on E85 Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 12:34 pm

I was looking at switching before I moved cause there was a station with it. If we got it up here I would jump to it so quick, MPG would go down but the power potential is just to great to pass up
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 3:04 pm

I personally don't see why all the hype. When setup correctly it is just like race gas. So why not just get a race gas map and run race fuel, that way you don't have to upgrade your fuel system to some crazy huge capacity.

I understand the convience part of it, when it is offered at the pump. However most cars with this type of power aren't daily driven so places to buy fuel usually aren't as big of deal. From what I read both fuels have their own pro's and con's.

So rather than spending a bunch to retrofit your fuel system, just get race gas tune and be happy. E85 is not magic, you cannot just add it to your car and then run crazy whp numbers.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 3:46 pm

The big thing for me is the power potential vs price part of it. Race gas isn't even near as cheap as E85. It wouldn't take much to set my car up for e85, all I would need is injectors, and a fuel pump. Then get a good tune for it and you're golden.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 3:54 pm

I noticed it is about a buck a gallon from what I saw, which is pretty sweet, but like Jake said, when you look at all the mods you have to do to the car to actually take advantage of it, my guess it would be more expensive to convert.

Now if you were planning on doing this to a daily driver it may be worth while, but for a race car I dont see the point, use race gas.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   May 9th 2010, 6:01 pm

haproot wrote:
The big thing for me is the power potential vs price part of it. Race gas isn't even near as cheap as E85. It wouldn't take much to set my car up for e85, all I would need is injectors, and a fuel pump. Then get a good tune for it and you're golden.
hey buddy Wink
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 22nd 2010, 4:35 pm

I had the option to tune with e85 in colorado. the reasons i didnt being that #1 we cant get it here and #2 i would have had to burn 2 tanks of corn before i could tune with it. Your fuel system has to be completely primed with e85 before you tune. I didnt have enough time to go ahead with it.

In redneck terms lol e85 is cheaper, has a higher octance(around100) and is a way easier alternative to race fuel or additives! Who doesnt just wanna pump and go? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 22nd 2010, 4:57 pm

You have to remember though it takes nearly twice as much E85 as it does regular fuel since the stoichometric ratio is diferent. Not only does that mean that just because its less per tank that its less overall and you'll need twice the injectors for the same power. Most 400hp setups require 1000-1600cc injectors.

I was plenty happy with 460 whp on 91 octane and never had a problem. I really think E85 is a waste for 90% of the people that tune with it. Unless your making over 500+ and dailying it at that level why not run pump on the streets and race fuel at the track. I'm not saying it doesn't have its benefits but most of us don't need any of the added benefits on are near or modestly modified engines.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 22nd 2010, 8:33 pm

Yep need probably at least double the injector for E85. If I were to do it, think i would go with 1300cc.


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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 7:05 am

I would really be stoked if we could get 85 here. Car is pretty much setup for it as it sits.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 10:02 am

ts4l wrote:
You have to remember though it takes nearly twice as much E85 as it does regular fuel since the stoichometric ratio is diferent. Not only does that mean that just because its less per tank that its less overall and you'll need twice the injectors for the same power. Most 400hp setups require 1000-1600cc injectors.

I was plenty happy with 460 whp on 91 octane and never had a problem. I really think E85 is a waste for 90% of the people that tune with it. Unless your making over 500+ and dailying it at that level why not run pump on the streets and race fuel at the track. I'm not saying it doesn't have its benefits but most of us don't need any of the added benefits on are near or modestly modified engines.

i 2nd what jason is sayin, its overrated imo. if you are going to be making alot of hp chances are you cant put it down to the ground on the streets so why not just have a seperate map for race fuel to 93, . im hoping for bigger numbers nxt year and am just having a race map for c16 and a lower boost map for the street. but i also can get vp gas easy lol.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 11:44 am

Yeah.... I'm on the jason band wagon too.... I have no freaking idea why people think it's so cool to run e85.

From a race car standpoint it is VERY inefficient. You have to feed twice as much fuel to get the A/F raio right and then on top of that you will not reap quite the same as race fuel anyways. I feel that people that like it so much is because it can be easier to tune with...I.E. people that don't know how to tune can tune better with it because you can screw up and it's forgiving. Especially when you're talking spark advance.... spark knock is not ever an issue.... so blowing up motors due to poor tuning is not really an issue and you can still make good power with just a crappy "street" tune.

But in the end... it has absolutely no advantage over race fuel PERIOD. In fact look at BTU output of e85 vs 110 race fuel. Race fuel wins.
So standing on that point two finely tuned cars identical on e85 vs 110 RF the gasoline car should make more power just looking at the physical power output of the fuel.

Oh...... and garanteed IF you can find e85 in Montana.... it's not going to be $1.00 a gallon. Cause everyone would be using it and blowing up their engines trying to be cheap. They would run e85 on any car that the nozzle would go into here and blow stuff up due to lean thermal nuclear meltdown trying to climb beartooth pass pedel to the wood trying to get the car to move.... but it's got e85 in the tank! ahhhhhhhh. cherry

Plus.... for a real world use of the fuel driving in normal conditions.... the fuel milage should drop the same percentage at the amount of extra fuel you need to supply to the engine to get the A/F right. so if you have to add 40% more fuel to get the ratio.... then you in theory should get gas milage 40% less than with gasoline.
Given IF e85 was $1.00 a gallon I would definately try using it in my truck even with a 40% drop in gas milage because the 180% savings in cost per gallon would make up for it.


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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 11:55 am

Ya cudnt have said it better.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 4:39 pm

DoodieHead wrote:
I would really be stoked if we could get 85 here. Car is pretty much setup for it as it sits.

me too! the id 1000cc should work
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 5:07 pm

they stress e85 for more of an enviromnmental stand point. makes people hate people like us less.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 23rd 2010, 7:15 pm

There is one issue i know of tho, hard as hell to get the car started in -20 degree weather. Stuff kinda acts like diesel.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   October 25th 2010, 1:00 am

nate jackson wrote:
DoodieHead wrote:
I would really be stoked if we could get 85 here. Car is pretty much setup for it as it sits.

me too! the id 1000cc should work

gaa i need these bad!!
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 18th 2011, 10:07 pm

Well I guess this thread isn't too old to bring back, but I do need to clear some things up, so people don't listen to the bad info. E85 is a great fuel. You really don't need to upgrade anything besides injectors. Also twice the size is so false. You need roughly 30 to 35% more fuel to run E85 as oppose to regular gas. Now our gas has 10% ethanol allready so you can figure 30%. Now E85 is cheaper than low octane pump gas, let alone 91. You figure in the cost differance and its about equal to 91 in cost per mile. Now where I am at 110 or 112 is 7.00 or more a gallon so its not cost effective to mix with 91, cause you need about 3 to 1 to equal the 105 octane of E85. Not sure what one gallon to a tank really does except puts lead in your system which is bad for fuel injection. Now 104 octane low lead avi fuel is probubly the safest way to go as its just under 4.00 I think and its low lead is better than leaded race fuel. Problem is its usally at small airports with small prop planes. Now ethanol has some cooling benifits that also make it good for boost apps. Helps lower that air temp. Now let the greenies fight for it, as it just helps us out in the long run. Ethanol runs cleaner, and will keep your engine running longer. Cars have been updated on there fuel systems since the 80s when ethanol first was used to water down fuel. In fact ford made many flex fuel vehicles before the goverment even started mandates. I would also like to mention that I think there are only two stations carrying E85 now, not sure on that, but thats what I heard. Idaho has a ethanol plant that hopefully will help get the ball moving on the introduction to flex fuel in montana. I personally want E98 more than E85. I think its octane is 115, and only problem is it wants to absorb water, so you don't want to let it sit for a long time. Not a problem really if you have a heated shop to store it and your car. Hope you do some reading on this, cause you shouldn't believe what anyone says till you verify it for yourself. Anyone want any info on this stuff, let me know, i'll point you in the right direction, but I don't want people to get the wrong Idea about the benifits of ethanol in the racing industry.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 19th 2011, 10:44 am

E85 Stoichometric ratio is 9.7:1 while pump gas is 14.7:1. So your right not exactly twice but regardless you will need injectors much larger than with pump gas, which in most cars also means a larger fuel pump. Granted if you are switching a stock car to E85 you may be fine, just like you may be fine running low boost on a normally NA car, but you should switch to a larger flowing fuel pump, now think about how modified most people's cars are to get the benefits of E85, so you would definitely need a new fuel pump. There are also other things like fuel lines than some cars may not need switched out but you can't say that about all cars.

Also as I have said in other E85 threads Ethanol doesn't take timing like race gas does, it can make power for cheaper but it will never perform as well as race gas.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 19th 2011, 12:12 pm

ts4l wrote:
it can make power for cheaper but it will never perform as well as race gas.

Exactly silent

And strange enough.... it is conventional to compare fuel by gross or net BTU output.


Conventional gasoline gross 125,000 BTU net 115,400BTU

Ethenol------------------------ gross 101,600 BTU net 75,700BTU


Need I say more?

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 19th 2011, 2:57 pm

You have some points here, but if you are building a motor and plan to run gas and E85, you just buy injectors for E85, and hopefully you have a tuning device that allows for more then one tune. You can tune bigger injectors for less fuel when on pump gas. Cost is about the same for injectors pretty much. If you needed 1000cc injectors for pump gas, you should buy 1300cc ones. For a carb, you would need a E85 kit and bigger jets, but they aren't too bad in cost. Now in a perfect world VP116 would cost 3.00 a gallon and we could just run that, but it isn't and its also not legal for the streets. Not saying I'd tell on anyone, but if they ever decide to check your fuel color, it stands out. Also in boost apps, people run a 11.5 to 1 afr up to 12.5, but they run 9 to 9.5 to 1 on E85. So its pretty much 30 to 35% more fuel. But in most places E85 sells for about .60 less a gallon, and that makes up for the consumption differance. Also catalatic convertors will be almost completely clean, as will the rest of the exhaust. If you where wanting to build a race track only car, the added costs for running E85 might not be worth it for a while, but in the long run you will save as it will not get to the price of race fuel. There are so many break thrus wtih ethanol its not even funny. They are now starting celeostic ethanol, where we don't need corn, sugar cane, beets, ect for fuel. You can now make it out of anything that of vegitaion, includeing grass clippings. I'm not a greenie by any means, but if it gets them off our backs and has great benifits to racing I am all for it. Plus I'd rather support america, rather than the saudi, venezula, ect. As far as fuel pumps go, go big, and use a regulator. Also if you want a good pump thats better than a typical walbro 255, look into bosch 044 300lph pumps. Also your correct not all cars in the 80s and 90s have upgraded fuel lines for ethanol, but most do. You just don't want aluminum lines, or certain types of rubber.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 19th 2011, 9:49 pm

Jfive wrote:
You have some points here, but if you are building a motor and plan to run gas and E85, you just buy injectors for E85, and hopefully you have a tuning device that allows for more then one tune. You can tune bigger injectors for less fuel when on pump gas. Cost is about the same for injectors pretty much. If you needed 1000cc injectors for pump gas, you should buy 1300cc ones. For a carb, you would need a E85 kit and bigger jets, but they aren't too bad in cost. Now in a perfect world VP116 would cost 3.00 a gallon and we could just run that, but it isn't and its also not legal for the streets. Not saying I'd tell on anyone, but if they ever decide to check your fuel color, it stands out. Also in boost apps, people run a 11.5 to 1 afr up to 12.5, but they run 9 to 9.5 to 1 on E85. So its pretty much 30 to 35% more fuel. But in most places E85 sells for about .60 less a gallon, and that makes up for the consumption differance. Also catalatic convertors will be almost completely clean, as will the rest of the exhaust. If you where wanting to build a race track only car, the added costs for running E85 might not be worth it for a while, but in the long run you will save as it will not get to the price of race fuel. There are so many break thrus wtih ethanol its not even funny. They are now starting celeostic ethanol, where we don't need corn, sugar cane, beets, ect for fuel. You can now make it out of anything that of vegitaion, includeing grass clippings. I'm not a greenie by any means, but if it gets them off our backs and has great benifits to racing I am all for it. Plus I'd rather support america, rather than the saudi, venezula, ect. As far as fuel pumps go, go big, and use a regulator. Also if you want a good pump thats better than a typical walbro 255, look into bosch 044 300lph pumps. Also your correct not all cars in the 80s and 90s have upgraded fuel lines for ethanol, but most do. You just don't want aluminum lines, or certain types of rubber.

E85 stoich is 9.7?? Max rich power?? 7.00 range? Compared to 11.0 with gas looks to me like +/- 50%??
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 20th 2011, 12:30 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85 You really need to just do some research or ask someone thats using it to find out the answer, but most people can use a 30% bigger injector and run E85. There is plenty of data out there now, to support what I am saying. But do the reasearch yourself and don't always believe the first thing you hear.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 20th 2011, 11:20 am

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 20th 2011, 1:54 pm

John,
Why do you seam to insist on making this a pissing match?

There are only like 4 places in the state where you can even get E85.

Jfive wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85 You really need to just do some research or ask someone thats using it to find out the answer, but most people can use a 30% bigger injector and run E85. There is plenty of data out there now, to support what I am saying. But do the reasearch yourself and don't always believe the first thing you hear.

And so then I guess we're all stupid because we obviously have not done our research but you have? Mr. 92 Ranger that hits 19 second 1/4 miles running on Ethanol and tearing up the track? Maybe it's just me.... but you seam to insist on being a little arrogant about all this. Its great to have new members on here and its good to have you. And maybe in the end you will school all of us with your infinite wisdom. But lets get to know each other first ok?

I will not have a use for Ethanol on any of my race cars. It is a great alternate fuel for a every day driver.... but even then its lacking especially in this part of the country where storing it in sub zero temps with condensation can destroy the fuel with phase separation. In fact.... right now... if you could find it in this state it would be sold as E85..... but it would really be E70 just so that the cars running on it could start in this cold weather. Race fuel... there is no special storage requirements. And with my race car where I'm lucky to put more than 500 miles in a year and 85% of those being on Lewistown D.R.I.V.E track Ethanol is not a fuel to meet my requirements. Maybe in my truck... but not in my race car. And you can argue that you can TRY to make up for the lack of BTU power output of the fuel by using its octane to bump up compression past what a gasoline engine can use, or more boost or whatever. But to me it's just pointless to argue about this at this point in time until most of us can drive up to a gas station and put it in our car from the pump. But in the end.... it just isn't race fuel.... and this is how I will compare them.

Race Fuel (Wine)

E85 (sparkling grape juice)

They both go in a glass. You drink them. and they might even taste the same.

Now I don't know for sure but I would say it just depends on what type of girl (car) you're taking on a date. Now let me know how good that sparkling grape juice helps you get laid. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 20th 2011, 9:52 pm

POW! OWNED BY DR.AUTO
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 21st 2011, 12:52 am

Well I didn't say anyone was stupid, I just wanted to make sure anyone reading this thread wasn't going to be mislead into thinking E85 can't have any benifits. I had a bad view on E85 at one point too. When I first heard about using it for performance use, I thought it was a total farce, but then I did a bunch of research and found out all the facts, and it makes it hard to not think about using it. Didn't mean to come of as being more all knowing, I was just thinking it would be good for others to know the facts. As for my 19.2 sec run, I have 105hp engine running on 87. I have a motor on an engine stand that is going to hopefully improve that time. I am setting it up for E85 though, just incase it ever comes. I might even buy a barrel of E98, just for racing. You can make ethanol in you back yard, and blend your own stuff if you want. You analogy of wine is close to mine but mine goes more like this. You have a 10.00 bottle of wine with 13.5% alcohol in it, and you have a 3.00 bottle with 10.0% alcohol in it. You need .7 of a bottle of the one to get drunk and 1 whole bottle of the other. You liver doesn't care how much you spent on the licquor it still has to process it the same, and you get just as drunk. Good read none the less.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 21st 2011, 6:15 pm

Yeah,
But there is still one side to this that seams to be getting overlooked. Ethanol is 22-45% less potent of a fuel. So.... in otherwords. Not only is the ratio different to achive lambda by 30-45% but it does not have the same potency as gasoline. So..... it uses more to start with just to get the correct air/fuel ratio. AND....... it does not have the same power out. And so...... on a N/A engine that loss on power output of the fuel will be the result of less power made on the same engine with ethanol vs gasoline plus it will consume more fuel. Now in a race car... like the type of racing I would be in where a 8 gallon fuel cell feeds my little 1.5L N/A engine I would have less power and use more fuel wich means that if its a big track I might not finish the race before I need to refuel.

Now in the world of drag racing.... noone would care. Because a drag racer wanting to run ethanol at its peak potential would be using a turbo charged engine with insane boost numbers to make up for the less potent fuel and be able to do it very well. But only because the engine would be in a operating range well beyond the capabilities of a gasoline engine. And so then this fuel would work well and noone would care hown much more fuel it used because its a drag car. Plus at this point the drag racer would be bragging about how much cooler his engine runs...... well duh.... dude...... your using a fuel with less BTU output than gasoline! lol

And so..... it all once again boils down to what exactly you want to do with the fuel. A purpose built drag car thats turbo charged would have very good results in a performance use. However..... anyone wanting to use it in a performance use that would be converting a gasoline engine to ethaoll would suffer in power unless they rebuilt the engine to handle a higher compression ratio or higher boost numbers to take advantage of the octane of ethanol to make up for the fuels short coming on power potential.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 21st 2011, 8:47 pm

I think your reading into the whole BTU part wrong, as its based off of a unit amount, and you used more E85 than gas so your BTU differance is no longer what your thinking it is. Lets say the BTU rating is based off 1 liter of fuel. Well you need to figure your usign 1.3 liters of e85 to your 1 liter of gas, and there fore you need to take 1.3 times the btu rating to get your new adjusted rating. Most people with out changing boost or compression will actually see an increase in hp and tq. Tq is about 5 to 7% just from upgrading to E85. Also you can run more timing with ethanol and get the most out of your setup. Just something to think about.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 21st 2011, 10:35 pm

Posted from another thread on here where i commented on e85:

e85 and other alcohols burns faster, so many people think of it as being similar to race gas and think they need to add timing. This is very wrong and will cause sandblasted internals. I've seen engines take 28 degrees of total timing on 100 octane and only handle 19 degrees on e85. Obviously the e85 motor also made less power. I have compared many timing charts and dyno charts on this subject when I was looking to maximize power on my old setup. You more times than not can not run more timing with e85 then you can on even lower octane race fuels (98, 100, etc)

I have seen many tuners make the same comments, you may run more timing than with pump gas but not race gas. And if you are in need or anything more than pump gas I wouldn't want to chose something because it was cheaper. Personally I think in a street car pump gas should be more than enough for 95% of the engines running around Montana. Heck I made 461 hp on a 2.0L that ran for 5 years until I sold it and has been beat up everyday since selling it with no problems on 91 octane.

Another thing to consider that was posted in the other thread is how bad E85 eats oil. This again is not something I read, I test oil for a living and can tell you that is 100% true unless you run very expensive oil and want to change it often e85 is a bad choice.

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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 22nd 2011, 11:54 pm

Here is something to read. http://www.raceone85.com/ All I think is that you guys have been given some bad information. It happens to all of us, and exspecially when it comes to performance tips. I can maybe get some real life E85 experianced people to help me out on this one, as they have first hand knowlage of what the numbers pencil out at, but your oil will be cleaner, engine will run cooler, and it goes on and on. I was given information alot like what you guys have had, and I went on about how bad it is and all the same stuff, until I realized I was given bad info, and got good info, and was able to make a more educated guess on this stuff. The only downfall really is if you plan on using it in the dead of winter when its -20 like said above. I know a guy that can on E70 winter mix start his car with no issue in -5 degree weather. Now some carb engines on 100% gas might not even be able to do this. Let me know what I need to get for you to believe me on the benifits, cause I am here for help. I want you to come away with this not wanting to switch stuff around for E85, but just knowing what its benifits are incase we end up with it at every pump in the future. Also you guys aren't very far away from one of the countrys biggest corn states, and its spreading. I know we have corn growers here locally, and I have never seen whole farm fields growing corn in my entire life until about three years ago. And they keep doing it so it must be worth it. Keep in mind that Idaho is starting to make ethanol from potatoe waste, and stuff, and You guys make the gas so the blending might not be to far away. Also there are great break thrus in adapting outboards, and even chainsaws to run on it. Even dirt bike guys are starting to switch. Its not me thats doing it, its the truth.
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PostSubject: Re: i need e85!!!   February 23rd 2011, 9:56 am

Jason is correct if you talk to most tuners E85 will only take slightly more timing then pump and no where near the timing that can be added on race fuel.
It is not only a case of just getting 30% bigger injectors and your good to go! In a performance application E85 will demand more then just 30% bigger injectors, you will need a pump as well. Case and point say take a honda that has a walbro intank pump and 1000cc injectors this fuel system is realiable to say 600-650whp. Put E85 in that same car and now because of increased fuel needed you only have a fuel system only good to 400-450whp. Which would account for 30% decrease in amount of power that can be made. And the only way to bring the car back to the power level that it was before would be to go to a second fuel pump or larger pump and increasing injector size once again!
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