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 Meth Injection

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ts4l
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PostSubject: Meth Injection   October 1st 2009, 4:45 pm

Hey guys, I was researching some tuning information and found this to be interesting. This guys is very well know in the 240 community for being one of the best tuners around. He ran 10's 6 years ago on an internally stock SR with only a few small changes and lots of tuning. He also currently has an NA KA24det in his 240 making 230 whp which is nuts considering he has had to make all the parts to get to this point. No one else has come even close to making that much power. He is a tuner at Millennium Racing Development in Virginia. Anyways he just posted this as 240 owners are finally beginning to really consider Meth injection. Personally I have not been a huge fan, although I see why many people think its a great idea. I kind of feel like he does that its more of a band aid than a real solution. No offense to anyone who uses it just wanted to post this here and start a discussion on the topic.

Meth/water inj sucks a donkey ********. all these spray systems are bandaids to people trying to get away with pump gas fuel and race gas performance. and then they dont want to dyno it to make sure its right.

have you ever seen what meth/water inj does to a power curve? its absolutely horrid makes it look like theres no timing. and dont even try to tell me that you have to add timing when you shoot the stuff. horse ********. methanol, ethanol, alcohol all burn FASTER than pump gas. meaning unless you want sandblasted pistons and broken ringlands you should retard timing.

my e85 all motor ka runs 19degrees timing for full power.
my 100 octane all motor ka runs 27 degrees for full power.

these are some more examples of what i'm talking about.

another example a 2.6liter H22 i built for a customer we tuned on 3 different fuels
93 octane (hate life) 21 degrees
100octane 27 degrees
e85 9 degrees

270wheel hp

MRD shop owners 2.3 Bseries 270whp
100octane 28 degrees
e85 19 degrees


the only spraying of any kind of stuff i'd do is denatured alcohol. DO NOT DO NOT tune the alcohol to the desired a/f level. stoich point of alky is like 7:1 so if you tune the car with alky to 11:1 then motor's actual lambda is alot leaner

tune the car to normal desired a/f or lamda for its application then add the alky and go the desired amount of boost above WHAT IS RECOMENDED for pump gas.


i hate doing it, but customers want it and i have to pay a mortgage. you guys know how my car runs. it makes power and i run it on 100 octane. if it was easy everyone would be doing it. dont listen to people trying to sell you something.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   October 1st 2009, 10:01 pm

I have not had any problems with my setup at all. My first set of main bearings I threw this year at the track was due to the meth not kicking on, at least I think. I really dont know for sure if the meth does anything, but it gives me peace of mind when running like an animal. I have thought of losing the kit, but need something to replace it. As soon as you get more information on the fuel additive then I will decided to pull it out or leave it in. There is no reason to run it if I can get 100+ out of a tank without it.

P.S. - No offense taken cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   October 2nd 2009, 10:23 am

For sure hopefully before the end of the month I will know more about the addative. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   October 5th 2009, 4:17 pm

Interesting read. I do believe that there are a few (well, more than a few) in the turbo buick world that you couldn't pry their methanol injection out of their cold dead hands though (and coming from guys running some crazy numbers from their little v6's). I don't have the energy at the current to dig up any arguments for or against. I do know that it works very well on my car (the Buick) and the one time that I let the tank run dry (the first day I got it because I didn't realize), it cost me a rebuild.

Definately not saying that there isn't a better alternative though, but I'm quite certain that if you get deciples of each in the room, there would probably be a brawl, lol. My guess is that a knowlegable person on any of the "xxx injection" schools of thought could make a good argument for their fav.

As far as it being a bandaid, it is, but in the same way that 91oct is a bandaid for 85oct, or racegas is a bandaid for 91oct, or N2O is a bandaid for the amount of o2 in air, or a turbo / supercharger is a bandaid for atmospheric pressure.... you get the point. The whole reason for any of this is to push our cars a little further than nature intended. Simple enough, to run the boost pressure that I want to run, I need more octane, to get more octane I have to chose which path to take, in my case I'm filling the little tank under the hood with Methanol to make sure my motor makes dumb amounts of power and doesn't go boom (as often, lol).

I'm a little suprised that he advocates alcohol when it is the same idea as methanol, basically the same idea with slightly different properties.

Snow Performance puts it as thus...

Methanol is a very high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these characteristics, it suppresses detonation more effectively than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It is toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.

Just saying, because one great tuner advocates against, take it with a grain of salt and compare around, maybe he just had back luck once or twice and it dead-set him against meth injection. You know how people can be.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   October 17th 2009, 8:06 am

True story Tom. Everyone has their opinions on how things work, but I for one am on the fence about the Methanol.

I am not going to lie, the meth has been working great, but like you stated in your post, when it fails, so does the motor (this was one of my rebuilds this year).

I believe next year I am going with a different setup to try and get into the 11s more safely not having to worry about the meth. I guess we will see what happens. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 7:54 am

My methanol is gone. Going to be running Torco from now on.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 11:55 am

Ive been messing around with Meth mixes, I was running 100% but it made me way to rich, thinking about switching to Denatured Alky
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 12:11 pm

ya know, i used to have a best friend, now i have an addict. thanks meth... ask tom hensel about meth injection, im pretty sure he shitcanned his 231 turbo buick cause of it, but dont quote me on it. ...
...i used to have a huge system in my car, but i kept gettin chased around the southside by tweekers trying to steal it from me
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 12:37 pm

i may not eat, i may not sleep, but i do have the cleanest house on my street. meth is a good band aid until u just step up to better fuel. problemis it doesnt stay consistant.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 1:34 pm

Novaflash2002 wrote:
i may not eat, i may not sleep, but i do have the cleanest house on my street. meth is a good band aid until u just step up to better fuel. problemis it doesnt stay consistant.
im thinking the consistencey of the burn is probably the most significant issue
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 3:06 pm

My setup was a little different than most. I actually bored out the injector and it was spraying about 4 times what it should have been. I also had a second injector, but I only used it once as it was flooding the cylinders.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 3:55 pm

Meth is my better fuel, Im using it more as a Secondary fuel system at this point
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 6:01 pm

My experience with Meth was overall pretty good. Just had once instance when the vacuum line got pinched and took out some main bearings. It helps with for sure, as I tested my car with and without it running the same tune.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 7:30 pm

just such a bastard to tune for it when temps are changing so much.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 7:34 pm

Yea temprature changes make it a serious pain, especially when your testing mixes.

I havent had a bad experiance with it yet, $200 bucks gained me quite a bit of power
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 7:38 pm

i was really concidering putting on my car, but after scouring all the buick v6 sites and the turbo forums, i opted out of it for multiple reasons, mostly because i dont want to have to continually fill a reserve of it and then worrying about it running low if im out puttin ass whoopins on people.. haha
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 8:06 pm

That part sucks ass, Im using the stock windshield washer reservoir so I cant see shit unless its completely full. I just keep either a 4pack of heet or a gallon of mix in the trunk
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 9:59 pm

if you are gonna use it, make it work, and for sure always keep some extra close by for emergencies
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 14th 2010, 11:30 pm

turbotudor wrote:
ya know, i used to have a best friend, now i have an addict. thanks meth... ask tom hensel about meth injection, im pretty sure he shitcanned his 231 turbo buick cause of it, but dont quote me on it. ...
...i used to have a huge system in my car, but i kept gettin chased around the southside by tweekers trying to steal it from me

Nah, the meth is the only reason that the Buick lived. It takes something to get a little v6 through the traps at 123 in a full weight car. It is either meth injection or 24x7 race gas, I choose meth. It is there when I need it and 91oct works just fine when I'm out of boost.

The only times that I've knowingly hurt the car were, one, when the meth tank went dry (first day I had it) due to ignorance of what the little led on the dash meant, and two, when the inlet tube came off (engine rock before I put the poly motor mounts in) after the MAF and before the turbo (worst case), which caused a severe lean condition. Too bad that was at the track on a pass, that cost me a pair of head gaskets, but at least that was apparently all.

As for what took out the motor this time, I'm not sure. One of these days I'll get off my lazy butt and pull the motor so we can see. I still like your idea of a broken or collapsed ring land. Nothing else makes much sense and even then I'd put the blame to the hypercrap pistons which can't take detonation very well and the couple times that it saw exteme detonation while I've had it (and who knows what it saw before I got it). It needed to be gone through carefully anyway, last time it was just a quick and dirty rebuild.

Unless times have changed in the Buick world, the turbo-buick crowd lives and dies by meth, but I haven't been frequenting their forums for a couple years. If I had the money, I'd do race gas all the time but I dont. I think that I still have a little bit of a 5 gallon drum of meth that I bought when we moved to Billings, that is 3 years ago. Then again, the Buick doesn't get many miles. Even if I drove it all the time, I bet I'd only fill the meth tank every couple weeks, so 5 gallons would probably last me a couple months, that isn't bad for $30...
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 15th 2010, 12:38 am

wow, tom lives... i still think the amount of 100%methanol you were putting to it that night i changed the muffler on it had something to do with it, but like we both have said in the past, pull it apart and find out what the hell is going on in there... i was refering to the use on a carbed motor not a f.i. sixxer. there are quite a few turbo blowthrough guys on the turbobuick sites that have had alot of problems with it on the tuning level. i guess if you use it and it works, great, but ill keep away until i get some f.i.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 21st 2010, 11:01 am

kagekun wrote:
Yea temprature changes make it a serious pain, especially when your testing mixes.

I havent had a bad experiance with it yet, $200 bucks gained me quite a bit of power

I never really saw a huge power gain with it. I was more of less using for reassurance that nothing bad was going to happen. Course if you tune for it and you lose the meth line, you lose your motor, which happened to me twice last year.

I am not sure how you have yours installed, but I would make damn sure you have all your lines routed around any possible heat. I had my lines about 1ft from the downpipe, which is plenty of clearance, but my car got really hot one day and it collapsed the vacuum line, which toasted my motor. What I did after the incident was run both vacuum/meth lines through a 1/2in aeroquip 300kpa line and never had a problem after that.

I just want to let you know my experience with meth so you can hopefully avoid the road I went down.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 21st 2010, 9:02 pm

Im trying to keep from tuning it out for meth, I made the mistake of removing like 15% fuel from my tune because I was so rich. Talked to Richard at Aquamist and he set me straight, now its either smaller jet for 100% meth or denatured alky, I really hate running with a mix.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 21st 2010, 9:46 pm

i was just talking to someone about running 100%methanol, and he said the only reason he would ever use it is if he were not running a primary cooler (intercooler)on something. i guess a chem cooler is better than no cooler huh? i figure when i am rich, i will just convert my engine to run strictly on methanol with an intercooler
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 21st 2010, 11:17 pm

I pulled ALOT harder with 100%, but my afrs were like 10.3 across the board, and thats as low as my log will show. I was fine with it till I read all these post about being TO rich under boost not being safe either.

I really want to convert to E85 and 1000cc injectors, alot of people making serious power with that setup
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 21st 2010, 11:24 pm

yep, but dont expect to see real e85 in montana for at least 5 more years ya know
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 22nd 2010, 10:40 am

IF ya want E85 let me know, I can get ya some. E85 is awesome if your car is setup for it. But I'd stick with regular pump gas until you start making over 400+ hp. Heck I'm still using 91 octane and making 460 whp. But if you want some race gas let me know I can get that for you too.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 22nd 2010, 11:40 am

im not big on the e85 from an engine building stand point. it cuts lurication down a ton. when my dad was building chainsaw engines for my uncle he could go about a year between rebuilds, but when they started usning 10% ethanol it went to rebuilding every 6 months. sure it had like a 105 octain, but not worth the engine longivity in my book. plus alchol absorbs water.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 12:27 am

ts4l wrote:
IF ya want E85 let me know, I can get ya some. E85 is awesome if your car is setup for it. But I'd stick with regular pump gas until you start making over 400+ hp. Heck I'm still using 91 octane and making 460 whp. But if you want some race gas let me know I can get that for you too.
460hp huh... how much your car weigh? mines right at 3350 with driver, we should get it done some day, straight track of course...
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 10:15 am

I'd guess with the cage I'm around 2800 lbs. 460 was my last trip to Gary's dyno at 20 psi on 91 octane, which most on here are saying reads low? I need to do a tune on race gas but I think I'm about at the limits of my exhaust housing. I should swap out to 1000cc injectors and have Martin retune it, seen a few with less done than I have make about 600 whp. But For now I think 460 is already more than I can handle.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 11:41 am

yeah i have heard that gary's rollers are low readers. i always wanted to get mine on a dyno just to see what it says. i figure on 16 psi, should make close to 600rearwheel
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 12:01 pm

I think we should setup a dyno day. I'd love to see what everyone's cars can do. I'll probably dyno mine again this summer just to check out a few things and make some small changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 12:03 pm

Speaking of dyno day....................pretty much bag the idea of buying that dyno I presume?

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 2:22 pm

I'd love to buy one but I just don't see it having enough business since hardly anyone on here or in town even use the ones we already have in town. Plus I don't have a lot of spare time anyways. It would be fun that's for sure.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 3:16 pm

the reason people dont use the ones we have is simple, one reads low, and the other one is broke 98% of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 4:27 pm

Still who cares if it reads low, its not about the power its a good tuning tool. For a fuel injected car its the only way to get the MBT. Is G&J always broken? I wanted to go there just to compare the A/F numbers but they always say they are super busy.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   February 23rd 2010, 6:24 pm

there shit is almost ALWAYS broke.and i think it's calibrated for mostly deisel stuff???
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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   April 17th 2010, 4:00 am

Well maybe one of these days they will be up and running again.

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PostSubject: Re: Meth Injection   

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Meth Injection
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