HomeCalendarGalleryFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Latest topics
» FS Apple MacBook Pro MD318D/A 39,1cm 2,2GHz, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, AMD HD 6750M $650
by datomalli21 July 14th 2015, 12:17 am

» FS HTC One M9 32GB Gold $480/Apple iPhone 6 4G 64GB $400
by Dert231 July 9th 2015, 12:13 am

» FS HTC One M9 32GB Gold $480/Apple iPhone 6 4G 64GB $400
by Dert231 July 9th 2015, 12:12 am

» FS HTC One M9 M9u 4G LTE 32GB $500/Apple iPhone 6 16GB $390
by Gtristk200 July 7th 2015, 1:40 pm

» FS HTC One M9 Plus 32gb 4g Lte Unlocked Gunmetal $540
by Gtrikertiks010 June 28th 2015, 10:47 pm

» WTS iPhone 6 $350 128GB S6 Edge $350 128GB Original Unlocked
by malachilexaa June 8th 2015, 1:13 am

» All-Wheel Dyno landing Mid-July
by ts4l June 7th 2015, 6:32 pm

» WTS iPhone 6 $350 128GB S6 Edge $350 128GB Original Unlocked
by marquisroy June 7th 2015, 1:48 am

» FS Apple iPhone 6 Plus 64Gb Factory Unlocked $470
by izegbadimore330 May 26th 2015, 2:53 am

» GoPro Hero 4 and Many accessories.
by SprockCapn May 21st 2015, 11:41 pm

» FS Apple iPhone 6 Plus 128Gb Factory Unlocked $600
by Frtermaklill30 May 20th 2015, 4:20 am

» FS BLACKBERRY PASSPORT RGY181LW 32GB SQW100-1 UNLOCKED 4G $330
by Tmertlserti May 12th 2015, 10:18 pm

» FS Pioneer DDJ-SX2 - 4-Channel DJ Controller with Serato $600
by Dterrstermill3 April 30th 2015, 1:33 am

» 1995 talon seats, guages, subs,focus suspension
by talontsi February 15th 2015, 2:14 pm

» 2014 Helena Track Days
by DoodieHead August 9th 2014, 9:33 am

May 2018
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   
CalendarCalendar

Share | 
 

 spring rates???

Go down 
AuthorMessage
f20bmt
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-26
Posts : 561
Location : Billings DUH

PostSubject: spring rates???   June 18th 2010, 12:33 pm

What is a good spring rate for a fwd car that weighs a ton (really it weighs 2000 lbs). I want to set this car up for scca. I already have sway bars and 5x8 way adjustable coilovers, but i want a stiffer ride and the cheapest rout I have found is tein springs. They make all kinds of rates and sizes I just dont know what would be a good stiff spring for a race car that is setup like this one. I am new to the scca (cars that turn) scene and dont have the knowledge for this situation. And yes I know this may not be the "right way" to get the car to turn but three gs for a new coilover setup isnt excactly in my near future. Thanks in advance for your help.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
dyno76
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 41
Join date : 2010-05-17
Posts : 882
Location : Billings

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 18th 2010, 12:41 pm

Call the guys at proggress springs..There awesome and super helpful..Tell them ur plans and they will explain in detail route they think you should go...Full coilover set 560 shipped.. I almost went with them when I ordered mine But I went PIC selects..Wanted to be able to adjust dampening was only reason why... now if you wanna spend 1200.00 go with those I love mine
Back to top Go down
View user profile
b1r - TS
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Age : 35
Join date : 2009-09-28
Posts : 625
Location : Billings

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 18th 2010, 1:06 pm

What you need to do is match your spring rates to your struts dampening. I assume when you say that you have adjustable coilovers, you meant to say struts.

A good place to start would be search for springs that others have used with your struts. Tein springs are typically just for looks, so I would avoid them.

when racing, and being fast.... low and stiff is not always a good comibnation. You need balanced suspenion and suspension travel to be able to really get moving.

Post up what struts you will be using and I will try to help you out. Because you have upgraded your sway bars you can run softer springs and let the sway bars do some of the work.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.teamsprock.com
f20bmt
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-26
Posts : 561
Location : Billings DUH

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 19th 2010, 9:53 am

illumina 5 ways in the front and skunk2 8 ways in the back. I think the spring rate in the front is 700 (0700.xxx.xxxx) but the rear springs arent marked. My main dispute is the rear of the car since that is where I think most of my slop is coming from. I built a sway bar out of some 3/4" sucker rod so once I get that put on it might solve the better part of my issues. any input would be RAD!!!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 19th 2010, 11:28 am

eric you crack me up. I already told you what to do. lol

And just for the record..... You DO NOT match the spring rate to the strut.... well ok... you do... but that's not the sequence you take.

you need to find out what you're wheel rate is first.... THEN you can calculate you're spring rate that you NEED..... and then you valve the strut/shock to deal with the spring rate you're going to use.

Check out the strut review thread I started I have some links in there that explain it all.

But really Eric.... just bite the bullet and go ground control koni's... really
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 19th 2010, 11:32 am

b1r - TS wrote:
Post up what struts you will be using and I will try to help you out. Because you have upgraded your sway bars you can run softer springs and let the sway bars do some of the work.

Sorry Jake... I don't agree with this. This is going to be a race car for Eric so starting from the ground up I say do it right the first time. Swaty bars should not have any influance on what spring rates you use bacause the spring rate is calculated for the wheel rate. And if you're getting serious.... sway bars are for tuning purposes after the suspension id built. But still does not change the spring rate.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 19th 2010, 12:50 pm

f20bmt wrote:
illumina 5 ways in the front and skunk2 8 ways in the back. I think the spring rate in the front is 700 (0700.xxx.xxxx) but the rear springs arent marked. My main dispute is the rear of the car since that is where I think most of my slop is coming from. I built a sway bar out of some 3/4" sucker rod so once I get that put on it might solve the better part of my issues. any input would be RAD!!!

Oh and Eric..... those Springs ARE NOT 700in/lbs. lol FYI If they were they'd be almost the same as the white car. I'm thinking IF those are the tokico springs the second number is the spring rate... but I can't remember.

Sorry Eric... I still think it's funny you insist on running those struts.... Hey... I know what you can do. You can get the right springs for you're wheel rate and put them on you're struts.... untill you can afford the right struts.... and in the meantime run auxillary shocks too. lol I've actually seen this done.... lol its really hard to properly match shock valveing to the rate doing this though... its the redneck way to compensate for the inaduqecies of the strut though... but... thats right up you're alley isn't it Hank? lol
Back to top Go down
View user profile
b1r - TS
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Age : 35
Join date : 2009-09-28
Posts : 625
Location : Billings

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 19th 2010, 1:54 pm

Dr.Auto wrote:
b1r - TS wrote:
Post up what struts you will be using and I will try to help you out. Because you have upgraded your sway bars you can run softer springs and let the sway bars do some of the work.

Sorry Jake... I don't agree with this. This is going to be a race car for Eric so starting from the ground up I say do it right the first time. Swaty bars should not have any influance on what spring rates you use bacause the spring rate is calculated for the wheel rate. And if you're getting serious.... sway bars are for tuning purposes after the suspension id built. But still does not change the spring rate.

I agree with you on the spring rates, struts, and wheel weight.... If you are going to start from scratch do it all right. i was thinking for him to use what he has got, get some springs that work within the window of dampening that your struts are and it should be better than having a spring that causes your car to be severly damped or under damped.

Sway bars complement springs, so yes a large sway bar does allow you to run softer springs. There is a point where this causes other issues, but in principal springs and sway bars are both designed to resist body roll. In the end we both are right with our statements i think. You do design your spring rates with the weight at the wheel and that sets your baseline, you then finish it off with complimentrary sway bars (high spring rates, small bar... lower spring rates, larger bar)

From Wikipedia: Sway bars
Roll couple is resisted by the suspension roll stiffness, which is a function of the spring rate of the vehicle's springs and of the anti-roll bars, if any. The use of anti-roll bars allows designers to reduce roll without making the suspension's springs stiffer in the vertical plane, which allows improved body control with less compromise of ride quality.


I am with you on the koni ground control setup... save yourself all the headache of trying to understand this stuff and just by a well proven setup! Really because you are not a professional driver and you don't have the budget to setup your car up with every last crazy peice.... my suggestion is drive your car enough until you feel confident with it and what you don't like about it. then start from there. There are so many variables that go into making your car fast at SCCA, so there is probably 10 different ways to skin this cat...or just buy huge slicks!


Last edited by b1r - TS on June 19th 2010, 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.teamsprock.com
ts4l
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-25
Posts : 904
Location : Billings, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 19th 2010, 3:52 pm

"Start with the total sprung weight of the vehicle, and then add more spring to where you need it to get it to handle the way you want. All 4 corners might have different rates." Quoted from Robi of Robispec

"Softer springs transfer less weight across the tires and generally yield more grip.

Ideal springs are dictated by everything:

Aero
Wheelbase and track width
Weight of the car
Weight distribution of the car / polar moments of the car
Suspension design (multi link, upper & lower a-arm, strut, live axle, etc...)
Chassis stiffness
Alignment (Camber, caster, toe - and any limitations of any by a governing body)
Tire size, compound, width
Wheel size, width
How long the race or timed session is
etc... "
Quoted by Billy Johnson of FX motorsports who holds a ton of Auto X and Time attack records.

Using more front or rear sway bar will help the other end of the car twist more, however going to far will cause the end with the larger sway lose its bite. Personally I prefer a softer spring that will allow some body roll to keep weight on the tire you want it to, then use the sway bars to stiffen it up to the point you feel you need depending on all the variables, track, temp, speeds, etc...

_________________
Team Sprock
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 2:26 am

ya we're saying the same stuff... just a little differant.

To keep things simple And alot of race car engineers do this too.... Find wheel rate, spring rate, valve, shocks, then tune with damping and anti-roll bars (I said roll bar cause technically cars DONT sway lol)
And I just keep that mentalitly just bacause really..... Black Otter hill climb is gone... SCCA tracks arent that rough and Lewistown is nice and smooth... so is ride comfort really an issue? So I just tune with damping, anti-roll bars and alignment. KISS lol
But in my humble opinion.... the white car works freaking awesome. I can tell you what spring rates are on it. And we cheated.... we told a professional what we were doing with the car... they told us what to use.
And if it were me building a car.... it would be Ground control/koni shock setup with ST Anti-roll bars with stiff rubber joints.

Talking about bushings.... Eric! you should look and see if these bushings I have here for the front control arms will wor in you're car. I never installed them in m grey car and I picked these up the last time I was at King Motorsports about 2-3 years ago... I'm thinking they'll work on your car too...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
f20bmt
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-26
Posts : 561
Location : Billings DUH

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 11:32 am

okay I think the dust has settled and its safe to post, haha, I was planning on getting some bushings and doing the whole car. like I said earlier well see what this SWAY bar does and go from there. Matt, who did you ask?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
b1r - TS
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Age : 35
Join date : 2009-09-28
Posts : 625
Location : Billings

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 2:12 pm

We will quite arguing about building the perfect machine and get back to reality... you just want to make your car handle better with a limited budget! Hit up the next SCCA event and take notes on what you like and don't like about the car... then try and fix the things that bug you. Before you start to worry about your suspension I would work on getting your tire pressure where you like it... if you are running the falken's still they have a wear marker on the side so shoot to get your wear line right down onto that.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.teamsprock.com
f20bmt
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-26
Posts : 561
Location : Billings DUH

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 3:51 pm

Thanks Jakers, I will be there. Who else is going on sunday??? Rimrock truck center if I remember right!?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 4:16 pm

I was offering the bushings to you Eric.... lol

You can compensate somewhat for lack of suspension with alignment angles.... Thats what I did before I got suspension. I ran really agressive negative camber to compensate for the horrable body ROLL. lol You might be able to make that work for a bit eric.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
f20bmt
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-26
Posts : 561
Location : Billings DUH

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 4:23 pm

It really doesnt roll that bad. What bushings do you have just for the lower front?? and when can I make the pickup???
Back to top Go down
View user profile
stimutacks
[ENTHUSIAST]
[ENTHUSIAST]
avatar

Age : 31
Join date : 2009-11-05
Posts : 486
Location : Billings, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 4:25 pm

f20bmt wrote:
What is a good spring rate for a fwd car that weighs a ton (really it weighs 2000 lbs). I want to set this car up for scca. I already have sway bars and 5x8 way adjustable coilovers, but i want a stiffer ride and the cheapest rout I have found is tein springs. They make all kinds of rates and sizes I just dont know what would be a good stiff spring for a race car that is setup like this one. I am new to the scca (cars that turn) scene and dont have the knowledge for this situation. And yes I know this may not be the "right way" to get the car to turn but three gs for a new coilover setup isnt excactly in my near future. Thanks in advance for your help.

that's light compared to newer model cars. My honda civic is around 2700lbs
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.myspace.com/504536672
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 9:47 pm

f20bmt wrote:
It really doesnt roll that bad. What bushings do you have just for the lower front?? and when can I make the pickup???

just the lower front control arm bushing. Swing be tueday after work if you want... or just text me...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 20th 2010, 9:48 pm

[quote="stimutacks]that's light compared to newer model cars. My honda civic is around 2700lbs[/quote]

and that is why people build older civics to go fast bom
Back to top Go down
View user profile
f20bmt
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
[WEEKEND WARRIOR]
avatar

Join date : 2009-09-26
Posts : 561
Location : Billings DUH

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 21st 2010, 9:50 am

What do you have on the schedule for today? Im off and I can make it happen!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dr.Auto
[GARAGE NUT]
[GARAGE NUT]
avatar

Age : 39
Join date : 2009-09-24
Posts : 977
Location : Lockwood, MT

PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   June 21st 2010, 10:51 am

I'm going home for lunch. 12:30-1:30.... text me and remind me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: spring rates???   

Back to top Go down
 
spring rates???
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Montana Automotive Enthusiasts Club :: 'Technical Information' :: Suspension-
Jump to: