Thank you Obama for helping us become Socialists!

I just saw the news about the health care reform bill being signed. Not sure where this thread will end up, but I first wanted to see if there is anyone on here who is remotely excited about this plan or thinks it's a good idea.

I know very little about the topic, but from my basic understanding this seems like another government run program that will tax people who make money in order to pay for poor people to get something for free.... so everyone can be treated fair!!! My opinion is if you want something get off your ass and get a job like I did, and live within your means, there should be no free handouts! (that is my non politically correct opinion)

But I guess there could be a good side to this! Maybe Obama will really make America a Socilistic country and that way we can all have the same income and drive the same cars, that would make racing a lot more interesting when we all roll out in the same car!

obama.....

O one
B big
A ass
M mistake
A america

Didn't you vote for him?

here is my opion, america didnt like the idea about having social security (now they are bitching that ther prolly wont be). they didnt like the idea of having a yankie green back ( now that is all we use for money), they didnt like to have a title for their land (now your stupid if you dont have a title).

my point is americans dont like change. proven fact. im not saying that i like this new health act, but i am willing to let it play out to see if it is a benifit. there are points in it that i do not agree with, but there are some that are benificail.

lets face it, we have it way better than people in china.

Depends on who you are in China. I've had a ton of fun in China and my friends there live way better than I ever will and they run a hospital that offers free health care for kids.

I just have a problem with the fact Obama is making it better for people who don't work than for those of us that have good jobs because we worked to get where we are. I am all for helping kids out if there parents are tools but the parents should be left to fend for them selves. If they want better health care get a batter job. I want a bigger Tv, a Bently, and tons of cash in the back. But if I want that I can't just wait for someone to give it to me. Well I didn't think so, maybe I should send Mr. Pres a letter asking for one. Its not fair I don't have one.

i agree that people should work harder or get a better job. but i think that it is now a law that everyone that works must have health insurance. this is with this new health act.

I can't figure out whose side the government is on. Shouldn't they be giving less power to insurance companies? Instead they will fine you if you don't have healthcare.


It scares me because if they can make you buy healthcare, what else can they make you do?

wow, better leave this one alone!....fuck it... the people in china? sure there are some people in china that are hurting, what the fuck do think we have? watch the government on tv, in the papers, and on the net with there expensive offices, buildings that look like the palace of the king of who knows what, spending trillions of dollars we DON't have (cause we owe it all to china) fucking off doing whatever they want, ignoring the fact we have well over 10% unemployment nationwide, people comin and going across our borders, ripin us off, meanwhile the common person is strugglin to pay there bills and still have a little left to enjoy themselves once and a while! ah shit, there i go......don't get me started

and ignorant people out there that think its a type of socialized medicine.... IT'S NOT!! Today in my business class we took the whole class discussing this new plan. socialized is where you pay taxes every month to the government, then when you go to the doctor and get treated, the government takes that tax money and pays the difference to the hospital you went to to pay for the expenses in treating you. you do not pay for it dirrectly- it seems like it is almost free to the patient- but it really isn't. Oh and they can't refuse service.
Now for what our new plan is a public option or stay with your insurance company you already have. a public option is basically just a government run insurance company.. it runs on the federal minimum for coverage. THATS NOT REALLY SOCIALIZED! But with the plan doctors cannot refuse service which will help more people across the country. there are bad things about it too. with the public option it will be harder for the private insurance companies to make money because the government run one is way cheaper. so more people will go for that.
And now it is a law that businessess offer health insurance to their workers. This is very good for the workers but sort of bad for small businesess. this forces them to spend more money and may run them down.. I just think we should let it play out and see what happens. Nothing is perfect and there are ALWAYS going to be bad things in EVERYTHING

I think after we get this up and going, we wont have the great Doctors like we do now, they wont get paid as much. Look at Canada, if there is surgery that needs done now, they are put on a wait list to see a mediocre doctor. They have to come down to us to get great medical attention.

i dont vote

another problem is that there will be a loss of competition. without competition why would the doctors try to find new cures and newer ways to do things. that is the most alarming thing about it to me

Exactly, and not only that, but when you go to the doctors, do they act like they care? no. so why are they doctors? for money. so if there isn't much money in being a doctor, I don't see many people lining up for the job, which of course makes it even harder to find cure when people aren't educated for it!
But I could be completely wrong about it lol!

yeah i mean there are also very large parts of the plan that WILL help out everyone alot too. Just remember that nothing will ever be perfect and that we need to make the best out of everything that is going on.

True that, however I say keep social security and rid of this
Oh and give Kids free medical.

i was way more comfortable with the evil i knew before the election than the evil we have now that we don't know about...

Bone...

First off, this particular law seems far from Socialism (As is was defined in that Manifesto thingy). If you look around, there are plenty of "Socialized" programs that people put up a fit about earlier, and now, we as a nation, wouldn't even think about getting rid of (Our highway system, public education, medicare, medicaid, the armed forces, etc.)

I would encourage you to look at the industrialized countries in Europe... now look at how many of them have a smooth running "socialized" healthcare system. I think the US is a bit behind the times personally.

"My opinion is if you want something get off your ass and get a job like I did, and live within your means, there should be no free handouts!" Yikes dude... I'd love to chat with you about this one, because I think we've both lived pretty "charmed" lives.

Will there be people that take advatage of this system, yes, of course. There are also people now with not insurance that, when they get hurt or sick, can only get care in the ER (which I've heard is still a pretty expensive place). Guess who pays for that dudes... you, the ever so caring tax payer!

Man... my fingers are already getting tired... call me sometime Bone, we'll chat.

Is the bill perfect, no. Is it a start in the right direction... I think so. Do I like discussing politics... about as much as I enjoy getting hit in the face.

Is the bill perfect, no. Is it a start in the right direction... I think so. Do I like discussing politics... about as much as I enjoy getting hit in the face.[/quote]

Duck or block next time..... fuckin with ya........but i do agree with you. We are behind in a lot of ways. This will get abused, but can help a lot of people. Theres gonna be pros and cons.....

pros....... cant think of any
cons........ thats me hating the pres....., where the fuck is the aryan brotherhood when you need em
sorry he's nogood and i dont like em. he doesnt even say the pledge of allegiance. he's fukkin muslim and shit.....


go ahead and blaphemy me, dont really care. i dont like obama and his shit so hate me if you wanna, dont care at this point.

turbotudor wrote:

pros....... cant think of any
cons........ thats me hating the pres....., where the fuck is the aryan brotherhood when you need em
sorry he's nogood and i dont like em. he doesnt even say the pledge of allegiance. he's fukkin muslim and shit.....


go ahead and blaphemy me, dont really care. i dont like obama and his shit so hate me if you wanna, dont care at this point.

Tell us how you really feel..

sprockmember wrote:

Bone...

First off, this particular law seems far from Socialism (As is was defined in that Manifesto thingy). If you look around, there are plenty of "Socialized" programs that people put up a fit about earlier, and now, we as a nation, wouldn't even think about getting rid of (Our highway system, public education, medicare, medicaid, the armed forces, etc.)

I would encourage you to look at the industrialized countries in Europe... now look at how many of them have a smooth running "socialized" healthcare system. I think the US is a bit behind the times personally.

"My opinion is if you want something get off your ass and get a job like I did, and live within your means, there should be no free handouts!" Yikes dude... I'd love to chat with you about this one, because I think we've both lived pretty "charmed" lives.

Will there be people that take advatage of this system, yes, of course. There are also people now with not insurance that, when they get hurt or sick, can only get care in the ER (which I've heard is still a pretty expensive place). Guess who pays for that dudes... you, the ever so caring tax payer!

Man... my fingers are already getting tired... call me sometime Bone, we'll chat.

Is the bill perfect, no. Is it a start in the right direction... I think so. Do I like discussing politics... about as much as I enjoy getting hit in the face.

I knew I should have kept political conversations out of here... doesn't really bring about any good. Nels I would be interested to learn more. My statement above came off a little harsh with the way I chose to word it.... not how I intended it (you know I am good at putting my foot in my mouth).

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/24/health.care.viewer.faqs/index.html?hpt=C1

There's some good info there for those who don't know what the bill entails.

screw barack"hitler" obama!!!!!!!!!!!!i got the best health care in the US.....so screw him...give me another ronald regan and ill be happy

THSI HEALTH CARE PLAN IS A SEIOUS STEP TOWARD SOCILAISM

this means the goverment takes away our right to chose .

16 states filed lawsuits against the fedrel goverment at the signin of this bill , becasue its a violation of our civil right s

the goverment cannot mandate what we do with our own bodies . yet this bill does just that

the beginings of socialism . this law needS to be repealed

Next stop: communism. Woot! Are we ready! ALL RIGHT!

Wow... I didn't expect racism to show it's face here.

Obama being Muslim? Where did you hear that? And if he was... what's the big deal. Islam has basically taken the Bible and written another chapter, with a new prophet. Seriously.

Not saying the pledge? That sounds like it would be political death if he did. I'd love to hear your sources.

Have you guys read the Communist Manifesto? Do you really know what socialism or communism are? Or is this banter from work?

Ghost, you bring up a great point, several states are pushing back, which I think is awesome, however, there's this little thing in the Constitution called the Supremacy Clause which says any law created at the Federal level trumps the states (And the states are using the 10th Amendment as their support). If the Supreme Court sided with the states, it would have to turn over decades.... over a century of law. Even though the Supreme Court is pretty conservative, I don't think they'd do it.

You guys realize if you already have health care... you don't have to change it right? And if you make less than (I think it's $80 some thousand) your premiums will actually go down.

Once again... this isn't perfect... but looking at it from a young point of view, and a point of view that cares deeply about kids, I think this is a step in the right direction. Anyone that knows me knows I'm a radical, and have a deep distrust in Washington (thanks Chomsky and Zinn). I suppose I should say that I'm no more and Obama supporter than I was a Bush supporter... I just pay attention to this stuff and hate to hear arguments that aren't backed up with some support.

If someone said they could stomp yer ass in a race, wouldn't you ask them why they thought so, or at least ponder it? Support your arguments... it leads to good discussions.

Big Nels all I'm saying is that I don't think its right for the Government to tell us what we "Have" to do. I also am very glad that this will help out kids without health care. I would be very sad to see a kid turned away. However its their parents, some of which chose not to work, and some who are simply out of work. I would have no problem if there is ways they can be helped. But as of lately there has been a large movement towards better unemployment benefits and now health care for those out of work. When things get too easy people are less motivated to get out and give things a try. Same thing with the Bank bail out. We all need to be responsible for our actions but if we have no consequences we don't learn from our mistakes. Our society seems to be increasingly lazy and we also feel because we want something that we "Deserve" it. There are a lot of things I want but its just not in the cards. I don't think we should continue to make things simpler on those who are down on their luck. Look at people who survived the Great Depression. Most people dealt with tough times and came out stronger, better at saving and willing to work to survive and provide for their family. If they would have been taken care of its hard to know but I assume they would not have become who they are. You can see anyone who survived that era for the most part will never forget it. Even for myself and most people I know, life is too easy. Anyone can get tons of credit and live outside their means, and if they stop paying the bills they won't even lose sleep over it. I think its like parents who love their kids and so they never say no and give them everything they want. But then don't understand why their kids always want more and turn into spoiled brats.

I also know I have an amazing life, great job and wonderful friends and family. I like to think because of that I do my best to help out people in need. And I try not to judge, I'll give someone a place to live, some food, money or try and help them find a job. But I don't think the Government should tell me I have to help everyone by being taxed more. I should be able to use that money to help the ones I love and am close to. And if I have extra then I'd be more than happy to help even those I don't. But I know plenty of people who won't even try and take care of themselves because they know that everyone else is going to take care of them. I'm not labeling this as anything, I'll be the first to admit I don't know enough to say if its socialism or whatever. But I think we as citizens of the USA should be free to make our own choices and in this case I feel we are not allowed that freedom. We all are told we will have health care or pay a fine. To me that is not freedom. Not to mention those who can't afford health care even with this new bill how will they pay for penalties. Just because most of us agree it would be great if we all have health care doesn't mean we should be able to force it on people. I wish everyone was happy, healthy and had a nice warm house. But that's not the way the world works, we all have to work if we want those things. If I had the money I would help everyone in the world have everything they need to be happy. But I can't and I feel this is a situation were we are giving someone a fish, instead of helping them learn to fish. The government will never be able to force joy, peace, health and love by penalizing people to make them do what they want, just like as parents you have to let your kids learn and become who they want to be. Forcing everyone to be a doctor or lawyer doesn't make the world a better place.

I see you guys feel strongly about this, which is awesome. I'm just seeing it from a different angle.

You mention the great depression... which is great, because this same debate (the socalism one) came up there as well. Remember all of those government run programs that people were upset about? Those same programs that you could agrue helped get us out of the depression? (Or you could say the war brought us out... something that seems to be endlessly debated)

Actually... I just read your post again... and I feel that you're pointing out several different related things... which is going to be hard to respond to (so I'm going to pick and choose!)

"Even for myself and most people I know, life is too easy. Anyone can get tons of credit and live outside their means, and if they stop paying the bills they won't even lose sleep over it. I think its like parents who love their kids and so they never say no and give them everything they want" --- Totally agree! This issue, though perhaps related, is not what I wanted to focus on... which is healthcare. I'm not a big fan of bailouts, I'm a big fan of people who are sick being able to get help.

"Not to mention those who can't afford health care even with this new bill how will they pay for penalties" - Look at the law... if your household makes under a certain amount (can't think of it right now) you don't have to pay the penalties.

The thing that sucks... and is cool about our system of government is not everyone is going to like the product, but sometimes you have to put up with it. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, yet I continue to pay taxes for it... so I'm not living in "freedom" either. I suppose your shoes fit my feet there.

I can't tell if it's a lack of understanding, or different view points. Either way, the discussion is nice!

I see what your saying big guy. I see taxes differently as we all need roads, schools, and a lot of other things that taxes pay for. The war obviously takes a huge portion of it but taxes pay for many things that I would be willing to say that everyone uses and enjoys.

This is not some system for everyone to benefit, or something everyone needs. Again I don't want to see anyone sick turned away either but I can see other ways of doing it. I understand some are in this situation without any fault of their own. But it seems tough for me to that those who chose to make no attempt to work for a better life to receive the same benefits as those people who get out there and work every day. Even if they just required health care to be provided by all employers it would be easier for me to understand. But giving it to those who simply chose not to work is what I see as another bailout for people who are making the choices to not do things to make their own life better.

The other thing I guess I just don't understand is why elected officials were so willing to pass this when the majority who elected them do not want it. This I guess is my biggest problem. Shouldn't they represent what the people want, not what will get them in the history books or re-elected.

We better have a TS bbq..... our fingers will fall off soon if we keep typing this much! Nels you around friday night?

just my $.02 do you guys have trouble producing a legit birth certifcate I sure don't now why is it that he was able to run and be elected even though he still has yet to produce a real one.....sounds fishy to me and that something more is going on than we see....and yes I did just go in to conspiracy theory mode...lol

I am really not excited about this as I have amazing insurance right now. Really hope this does not F'up my coverage.

What I like about the bill is that it is going to keep these big wig health insurance companys in check with outrages premiums and won't allow them to drop someone when they get really sick with a deadly illness. I experienced this first hand with my mother. In 93 she was diagnosed with beast cancer, and it was the hardest thing I had to deal with in my life but thank god she had health insurance right? Wrong!!!!! They wouldn't cover her and then dropped her because they said it was a cancer and could run in her family, could not did, or some bull shit story like that.After paying them for 10 years. It not like we could just say well mom good luck and not get her the help she needed. So we had to sale everything we had from the house, my 67 mustang, dads 69 mustang, moms 73 Mach1, all the way down to my little brother and sisters toys just to cover the medical bills that were coming in hand over fist, and still went into bankruptcy. Unlike a lot of these stories she did win her battle with this harrible dease she has tested clean every year for the past 15 years. Still, no health insurance company will cover her because of this. Now in the new bill none of these money hungry fucks that rob us all bind everyday can denie her coverage or kick her off if she ever gets sick again. Most people wouldn't real understand this and how easy it could happen to them, but when it does you wiill wish that there is something to help with the bills that pile up because there is enough to worry about when a loved one is fighting for their life. Before you say hay this bill is just for poor people that don't work and I have to pay for it, look around at your loved ones and imagine if they were fighting for their life and your insurance said get fuck. I think it is a small price to pay with taxes to have the security that this bill offers. Just my opinion.

QwkLX wrote:

What I like about the bill is that it is going to keep these big wig health insurance companys in check with outrages premiums and won't allow them to drop someone when they get really sick with a deadly illness. I experienced this first hand with my mother. In 93 she was diagnosed with beast cancer, and it was the hardest thing I had to deal with in my life but thank god she had health insurance right? Wrong!!!!! They wouldn't cover her and then dropped her because they said it was a cancer and could run in her family, could not did, or some bull shit story like that.After paying them for 10 years. It not like we could just say well mom good luck and not get her the help she needed. So we had to sale everything we had from the house, my 67 mustang, dads 69 mustang, moms 73 Mach1, all the way down to my little brother and sisters toys just to cover the medical bills that were coming in hand over fist, and still went into bankruptcy. Unlike a lot of these stories she did win her battle with this harrible dease she has tested clean every year for the past 15 years. Still, no health insurance company will cover her because of this. Now in the new bill none of these money hungry fucks that rob us all bind everyday can denie her coverage or kick her off if she ever gets sick again. Most people wouldn't real understand this and how easy it could happen to them, but when it does you wiill wish that there is something to help with the bills that pile up because there is enough to worry about when a loved one is fighting for their life. Before you say hay this bill is just for poor people that don't work and I have to pay for it, look around at your loved ones and imagine if they were fighting for their life and your insurance said get fuck. I think it is a small price to pay with taxes to have the security that this bill offers. Just my opinion.

+1000

My mom had a heart attack about 6 or 7 years ago and ever since then she can't get health insurance. The insurance companies plainly tell her NO. It's just not a humane thing to do. I know that's how insurance companies make their money, but really?

I also think another thing that needs to happen is Tort Reform. Too many people are suing the shit out of doctors, which, in return, makes the doctors raise their rates, in return, making insurance rates go up. Doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance, and when that goes up, you know WE will be paying for it. There needs to be a limit set on how much doctors can get sued, because if there isn't, the prices are just going to keep going up.

I certainly don't agree with that. To me if you are current they should have to cover you although I understand they don't. And I am sorry to hear about your tough times. I think that could have been taken care of with a similar bill and its not the whole bill I have a problem with. Just the parts I have mentioned. As I said I am far from educated enough to say a whole lot. I just don't agree with many of the decisions the government has made lately that help out those who don't make an attempt to help themselves.